Bright child, good school, Year 11, got to choose A Levels. Tell me - 3 or 4?

Ladymucks - language is important only in a fraction of graduate jobs. Maths is important for more IMHO. But that is besides a point unless of course you are youself a managesr involved in graduate intake atthe moment.
However first of all that student will not get an offer from one of top unis (we are not even talking Oxbridge here). Regardless of doing 4 subjects. And that us the fact.
That's what parents and students have to know and remember when trying to "hedge".

I don't really see what bets need to be hedged?

DDs college is massive and they have not decided what they are doing next year.
They have the resources to run separate AS/A2 and A2 classes in the same subjects
but are still sitting on the fence about how they will actually handle stuff.

DS has been accepted to start there next September to do 5 subjects, probably, depending, maybe

I feel really, really sorry for schools and colleges without the resources or economies of scale to be able to hedge their bets while the car crash of the changes carries on.

"Everyone would agree that it is better to get 3A's than 2xAA and 2xBB"

Surely "it depends". As an employer for example, I would probably rate someone who had 4 A levels including a language over someone who had 3 A grades without, and wouldn't stress too much at all if all the A levels were in the A*-B range.

Universities may just look for 3 A levels, but employers will have a different set of criteria (and obviously the quality of the uni and degree will factor into that).

Everyone would agree that it is better to get 3A's than 2xAA and 2xBB

If anyone considers fourth subject to A2 level they better be hard working and well organised!

Yes current DC is doing five but that includes FM which he's just picked up so he'll be left with four but including FM (I expect - his choice - but I'm certainly hoping he drops the fifth). I think there has to be a caveat for FM.

No it wasn't to keep options open. His subject choices at the start of sixth form included two which still have the old AS and two which don't so that was standard fare for the sixth form but he's now collected another because of taking up FM. The fifth subject is a completely unrelated creative subject which he just enjoys but in no way does it keep his options open. It adds bugger all in that regard.

All my other DC have taken only three plus the EPQ except for the medic who wanted to take history as well, alongside the sciences. But that added nothing to his application either I don't think. He didn't do it for application purposes. If that was the motive then he'd have taken maths instead.

I didn't see the intervening posts but that comment about cheating was in response to your suggestion on Wednesday roguedad, of an applicant representing on their UCAS that they were intending to take four subjects through to A2 and then dropping one after securing offers.

It's not a question of aiming low either roguedad. It's a question of aiming deeper rather than broader but I accept that a distinction should probably be drawn between straight sciences/ maths as opposed to a mix which includes arts/ humanities or is straight arts/ humanities.

Molio is n't your present sixth former doing 5? I assume that is for keeping choices open?

roguedad that's cheating. Also, some Oxford colleges (not sure about Cambridge) don't like that particular calculated misrepresentation and so their offer letter states that the offer is based on A*AA (or whatever) plus the continuation through to qualification of the fourth A level specified on the UCAS form. Which I think is quite funny for the slippery customers out there.

Three OP, unless there's FM in the mix although I agree that the EPQ is a good addition.

Figment Having, in the back of your mind, the idea that you can always (or may even be required to) give up one of your subjects is in my view not healthy

A view from one pretty academic private school that one poster on this thread knows well.

It has long been part of the school’s philosophy that we don’t confuse ‘education’ with ‘exams’. The boys will still have given themselves the experience and breadth that pursuing a subject beyond GCSE will bring and that is the key thing. Motivation will not be an issue because boys will not know which subject, if any, they’ll be dropping until after the summer exam in the Lower Sixth so any of the courses they follow in the Lower Sixth will need to be treated as if they were going to be followed through to A Level - they will certainly be taught like that. In our experience, the subject boys pick at their ‘4th’ when in 5th year often turns out to rank more highly with them when they’ve experienced it at A Level, so boys have always been encouraged to place equal weight on each subject.

DD is also Y11. At her school the sixth from offers 3 A levels plus EPQ all done in 4 days per week plus a 1 day/week work placement for the most able, or less confident candidates can drop the EPG and/or the work placement to concentrate on 3 A levels. Only the Oxbridge candidates will be allowed to do 4 A levels as they are not necessary for anyone else.
High proportion of Russell Group candidates (according to self-aggrandizing HT) and the school has taken advice from the Unis.

Quite agree figment. She's lucky that she might at least get an AS out of the year if she can stand it that long

Every uni we went this year confirmed they are interested in grades in 3 subjects. None of the courses were calculating points just expected grades in my dd case any subject.
They emphasised every time to read details of entrance requirements on each course websites.

HSM - that was the benefit of the AS system which IMHO was abandoned by this government in a political move without enough consideration of its implications - surprise surprise!

DD chose 4 subjects with an absolute definite choice for one of them. This is the one she is now thinking of dropping. If she'd only chosen 3, she would have chosen this subject and have to carry it on even though she hates it.

figment I suppose the difficulty is in deciding which applicants have that extra depth if understanding.

Do GCSE results tell us this? Having had two just go through that, I remain unconvinced. They seem more a test of mettle and organisational skills to me ( not that those are poor skills to have).

I don't think there is much appetite to increase the interview process. It's extraordinarily time consuming as it is ( both for staff and applicants alike). And do those interviews really tell us who has the depth? Perhaps. I dunno. I'm knackered and jaded from being in the middle of it at the moment.

So more pre tests? Even though we can see how this deters applicants from schools with little experience of the system?

It's all a bit of a bugger ( but as I say I'm probably not feeling the love this morning).

I can't help thinking it is better to study 3 A levels really well and then using the remaining time focused on things then demonstrate self driven and independent study.

That must be the fairest way - and I expect it will be the way forward for, say, Oxbridge humanities, where access issues alone would, you would think, make rewarding extra qualifications, as opposed to extra depth of understanding, unlikely.

I really dislike the idea of an extra A level that may be given up part way through with no examination result.

I suspect that unless this is carefully managed, many children will be sent 'off course' by the prospect that one of their subjects can be abandoned.

I don't just mean students who are motivated by the instrumental goal of a 'grade' at the end - and by the generalised expectations under the current system that they will complete the course.

I also think many hard working and motivated children will struggle to 'give up' at the appropriate moment, and teachers are likely to struggle with this. Having, in the back of your mind, the idea that you can always (or may even be required to) give up one of your subjects is in my view not healthy.

And nobody has suggested that curriculum volume is going to diminish.

There are so many ways nowadays to achieve greater depth of study and to branch out in the sixth form. This change should be seen as an opportunity. The humanities focus should be on extra reading, writing, thinking, watching, performing, sharing ideas, or maybe eg a gcse in a new mfl, or keeping on maths at some level. Not on a default extra A level for the sake of it.

By the way, I did maths at Cambridge starting in 1977, pre all AS-level stuff. Maths and NatSci was littered with kids with 4 or 5. My offer was based on grades in 4 being taken in 6-2 having already taken one A level in first year 6th.

Maths at Cambridge also. 1990s. Top ranked college. Knew lots of Nat Scis and Engineers but never heard of an offer based on 4 A levels (although many offers included STEP). Those who had 4 A levels almost always had FM as the fourth; occasionally students had maths plus 3 sciences. I was the only STEM student I came across in a large college who had more 4 A levels. My offer was ridiculously low (Bs) and was not based on all the A levels I was taking.

I do agree though that 3 A levels in STEM is not likely to be the norm at the top courses under the new system (at least, until changes in difficulty kick in). Doing 3 A levels in sciences would be probably a mistake for the strongest students. On the other hand, with good grades they would still get into plenty of very good universities, even if not the very top universities.

3 A levels with the standard website offer is emphatically not enough for highly selective courses. Cambridge maths offer: AAA plus STEP grades. Typical Cambridge maths entrant: 4+ A levels, mostly A*s plus STEP grades. But only for a very small number of courses such as this do you need to exceed the stated offer to get an offer in the first place.

irregular have you guys decided what to do in the next cycle after decoupling?

I feel like we're being very slow to make a decision.

4/5 AS for clarification. Those many have A grades in those AS too.

Oxford tutor here. Arts/Hum subject. Definitely not interested in 4 A-levels over 3, provided appropriate subjects. Can't speak for all subjects.

The university where I work is currently going through the admissions/interview process.

My batch of applicants all have 4/5As (I'm not STEM). I suspect this is common across the board.

However, the 2016 cycle will see applicants with divergent profiles. Some will have free standing AS UMS, some won't, some will have taken 4/5 subjects in L6, some 3.

It will be interesting to see how we decide to proceed.