3 Year Sixth Form - Need advice please

I wouldn't recommend acceleration for anyone. Quite apart from the issues of getting through the staging posts of education (difficult enough) with additional hurdles of being young for year, there is no advantage to looking for your first graduate job when you are 19 or 20.

Universities and departments within universities have different policies about recruiting under 18s and it isn't always straightforward to find. UCL has some very explicit and detailed advice on its website, for example. Other universities don't really reveal this stuff unless you go to an Open Day. I regularly help French applicants who will be under 18 at the beginning of their first year and my experience is that you need to find out on a case-by-case basis how the university/department will react. Halls of residence are another thorny issue but this usually works in favour of under 18s, who get the allocated nicer, safer accommodation. Safeguarding laws for minors prohibit universities from sticking under 18s in all sorts of accommodation deemed suitable for over 18s.

GoMilou, are you within communting distance of London, or is there a family member she could stay with? Honestly then I don't think it is a big deal. A girl DD knew was 16 (autumn birthday in the French system where years start 1 January, plus she had been put up a year) when she started at an internationally recognised London University. A bit strange for DD who was starting sixth form at the same time. But if you think about it, lots of London kids go to places like South Thames College for sixth form where they will mix with students of different ages and backgrounds. The main difference is the quality of the teaching. Then you have a choice whether to keep up with existing out of school Extra Curricular or join University societies.

The student experience in London is atypical. For many this is a bad thing, but it suits others fine. DS does not drink, is deeply into his subject, and happy to mix with international students. Its not all work but a lot of socialising is around cooking in each other's flats or heading off to China Town, or going to see odd and arty Japanese film plus a fair amount of computer gaming. His friends are not particularly sophisticated and there would be no problem if you were already used to mixing with older students in sixth form. (I think DS has ended up as diversity officer for one society partly as a joke as, whether British or international, everyone else was from an ethnic background.)

Good mathematicians, whether taking pure maths or mathematical based subjects like economics or engineering, expect to take a Masters. So you get your first degree over early and leave London then.

If you are seriously thinking about London and don't live nearby, it might be worth speaking to the very helpful accommodation offices at UCL, Imperial and LSE and ask about what they offer for younger students. (If you do live within the M25 be careful about Kings as unlike the others they don't guarantee accommodation to all first years.)

Oddly also I don't think London will prove much more expensive overall. Yes accommodation is more. However because they cook together, he and his friends don't spend much. Overseas parents make huge sacrifices to send their DC to the UK to study. So students work hard and are quite frugal.

The parents are asked to guarantee the loan until the student turns 18, when they can sign.

So what happens about student loans? As I understand it a minor cannot legally enter into a loan agreement

It is an interesting point about FM in state schools, Bertrand. I often wonder why schools cannot pool their FM candidates so there is a class for them held at the school with a suitable teacher. A young lady in our village just got Chemistry A level at A but her school does not offer chemistry. Another got A in FM, but the same school does not offer FM either. It is a secondary modern school. I cannot see how you do Chemistry at home so she must have gone to one of the grammar schools for lessons! The school put the results up on their web site.

I seem to know only maths students who have FM and the maths courses I am aware of, very few admittedly , definitely do not like a gap year. They actively say so. I guess it depends if you want top 5 or not.

I too think going to university early is a mistake. Huge numbers of young people do not go clubbing but they do like to drink to be social and they are responsible. Joining in is an important part and if you are unable to, it may dim the experience for the first year.

Oh, I know that the vast majority of people wanting to do maths will have further maths. I was just questioning it being an absolute requirement when a lot of 6th forms and colleges don't do it.

I do feel quite strongly, by the way, that going to university early is a mistake. Probably absolutely fine academically- particularly in a subject like maths- but so not a good idea in all other areas of life.

*"This is the sad bit - unless you attend a school with A2 FM you are excluded from the top 5 maths universities in the country."

Are we really sure about this? It seems discriminatory to me...........*

The vast majority of applicants and of those who are accepted have A2 FM (or foreign equivalent). A small number will have self-studied A2 FM and there is a support programme for such students:

www.furthermaths.org.uk/index.php

A very small number will have AS FM but not A2 FM. For the latter it is pretty tough going at the beginning, as the pace will seem very fast.

Disquisitiones, you were right and I was being a bit provocative, though in response to a post which implied being willing to participate in heavy drinking is vital to a good student experience. It is not. There might be scope for a model which predicts the level of student drinking based on variables including: subject, gender ratio, international students, ethnic diversity, north south, expense, campus, "Sloane quotient" and so on. However calculated, DS' University would be on the dry end of the scale.

And that is part of the point. If you are relatively young you probably need to think about what suits best. A shared flat with half a dozen heavy drinking strangers could be awful. However probably the only way to find out what is on offer for younger students is to ask. FWIW London Universities seem very used to younger students, including special freshers events. However obviously London may not be ideal for someone leaving home for the first time.

Go Milou, you would need to check with individual websites, but generally for the more mathematical economics courses, FM A2 is preferred, and useful to have, but not required. AS however is often a requirement, though the grade is not always specified. Again it is worth a conversation with the University. For example they may not require the A2, and may not be interested in the mechanics options, but might look kindly on a student who had made the effort to self study for the statistics papers. The last thing many top Universities want to do is close the door to bright state educated students simply because their schools don't offer FM.

In principle you can enter top maths courses such as Oxbridge without A2 FM too. It's rare, but it's possible.

"This is the sad bit - unless you attend a school with A2 FM you are excluded from the top 5 maths universities in the country."

Are we really sure about this? It seems discriminatory to me...........

But there are students who are 17 and sometimes younger in the first year at university - Scottish, French, other nationalities. The issue is maturity, not absolute age.

I see plenty of old for year students who could have benefitted from taking time out to mature and I also see students on the younger end who are fine. It should be considered case by case, not by blanket policy. OP suggests that a gap year might be a good idea because the student isn't particularly mature, but if she were mature age alone shouldn't be the determining factor.

(And FWIW I didn't turn 18 until I was well into my university course. No big deal.)

disquisitiones, the DC in question is in the year above AND has an August birthday. If she does a two-year 6th form, she won't be 18 until a month-or-so before starting University Year 2.

I agree with most of what Needmoresleep says, with the only caveat being that a significant fraction of my maths students do drink too much! But she's totally right that there's always a group of students, particularly international students and those from certain ethnic groups in the UK, who aren't into drinking. Personally I'd rather my DC hang out with such students rather than those who are massively into clubbing and drinking.

Another myth: all A2s must be at the same sitting. Very few universities actually insist on this and it is actually very common for maths A level to be taken in year 12 with 2 or 3 other A2s being taken in year 13. It would be rare for the year 12 maths A level grade to be excluded from the offer - only a few courses at a few places would do this.

Yet another myth: gap years are a no for maths. Very few courses have an opinion one way or another on this.

You pretty much do need A2 FM for the top 4 or 5 maths courses, although in principle you can be accepted without FM. A big fraction of students won't have A2 FM on many highly respected RG maths courses.

My own DC are out of year but are amongst the most mature in their school year groups. I would only encourage them to defer if they looked like they weren't mature and ready for university (which doesn't seem likely at this point). Being a bit young for year is not itself a big deal, if the student is as mature as their friends.

Overall if the girl concerned can get As in her three A2s she would have a wide choice of well respected universities for maths/engineering. It's only the very top places which would require A*s and might be picky about gap years, having FM A2 etc etc.

Hopefully disquisitiones will be along soon.

However:

1. It is far from unusual for students to start University before the age of 18. Particuarly maths, particularly in London. The brighter students at London's Lycee CDG routinely seem to be put up a year. And the same for Scots. International students can be even younger. DD knew at least a couple of Imperial students who started at 14.

1. Presumably your DD already mixes with others in her school year group. Staying with that year group through to University should not be a problem.

1. I don't agree with Senua. Lots of young people don't drink much. Indeed I read a few months back that pub chains are rethinking their strategies in the light of falling student demand. DS says that the heavy drinkers at his University are largely exiled to a corner of the Athletics Union. Not least modern students have to work very very hard. Plus Eurpopean and International students, and typically maths based degrees have a higher proportion than other courses, usually don't see drinking as an inevitable or desirable part of student life.

1. MN myths that need debunking No 37. That you need A2 Further maths. Not true. Probably anywhere or for anything. Too many sixth forms don't offer it.

Think of degrees she may want to take and ask Universities about both their approach to younger students and their maths requirements. If she wants to go to University after a two year sixth form she should. Three A levels and a FM AS, depending on grades, would be more than enough. (DS' course asks for AS FM. He has been surprised how many of his peers sucessfully self studied.)

I would try to get her back with her normal year group. A lot of socialising at University revolves around pubs and clubs. You don't have to join in the drinking but she won't even get entry to establishments if she's not yet 18. She'll be the one left behind on the pavement / back at Halls.

I would definitely check whether universities want all A levels taken in one sitting, and not spread out. Some do. They do not like Gap years for maths at some universities. Engineering courses probably won't mind. Also what about the maths test for university entrance? Would she need prep for that? (Sorry I forget it's name but Warwick uni web site has details of it and how it alters entry grades, for example). Industry placements for 17 year olds may be problematic. The universities tend to get all of them for "sandwich" students. I would check with individual universities what their policies are and she will need to narrow down what course she may like. Economics is not engineering!