Impact of changes to the A level on IB uptake

cake - IME English universities make no "allowance" when setting minimum entrance standards for extras that DC are doing above and beyond their core subjects.

Thanks for sharing that millions, it has reassured me that DS is making the right decision.

Just looking through HEAP there are lots of courses asking for 766 Highers compared to A*AA, with no allowance being made for studying a further 3 subjects plus the extended essay etc.

Good Luck to your DD.

IB is a great exam IMO but it requires more and different resources to teach to full potential than does a traditional course of three or four A-levels.

A-levels are not particularly demanding relative to some other European end-of-school exams.

2 of my DC have A levels, 2 did IB.

To get even a sniff of a course at University - think medicine - you need at least 38 points. So, with 6 subjects, you need 6's which is the equivalent of an A. In 6 subjects. The extra 2 marks will come from the Extended Essay subject, if the magic 7 the A* is reached or a combination of factors.

My DD wants to be a vet, she needs 38. If she was doing A levels she'd need only 3 A*s to be considered. She needs to get A's is 6 subjects. Biology, chemistry, maths, English, French, history. On top of that, she has the theory of knowledge (a philosophy subject) her extended essay and community, arts and service to pass. If you don't pass any subject, you fail the whole IB. It's not easier than A levels, it's incredibly hard.
I really don't think the Universities do 'get' the IB at all, it's certainly not a level playing field. 6 subjects opposed to 3.

The stress is unreal, she has no free time, she's not enjoying her 6th form at all. My DS who did IB - was always in the top of his maths and sciences at school, managed the A*s at IGCSE, gave up on IB half way through and failed.
The 2 DC that did A levels, had a much easier time of it, they enjoyed their last years at school and achieved the grades.

If I had a choice, I would've only let my DC do A levels.
Thankfully, this is our last child and the angst, worry and stress will end the beginning of June next year.

Needsmore, DS is only looking to do Maths at A level, not FM, If you are an all out mathematician I don't think it matters which course you take. DS is trying to keep a broad range of subjects because he's not sure what to study at Uni. He thinks it's important to keep going with a language, so that 2 options taken and he is really struggling to chose the other 2. IB would suit him so much better.

I'm just sharing the advice we were given by DS's school because there are lots of parents trying to help their DCs decide between IB/A levels at schools that do not offer both. Maybe the advice is wrong, but it is one of the top performing IB schools in the world so I would expect their advice to be as good as it gets. They are actually very concerned at the huge drop in numbers taking IB since introducing A levels and so are doing everything they can to encourage the IB. But even then they are concerned about the Maths. Apparently last years papers were "better".

Cake, comparisons are difficult. From observation there is often quite a range of results with Further Maths, with some getting A* in Maths but dropping to a C in Further.

DS' experience is that relevent maths content may well be covered again at University. He was a bit surprised when they effectively covered half the content of one of his FM papers in a single lecture. He was glad that in his case it was revision.

I just checked the Sevenoaks results as they are they must be the biggest IB cohort here, and it is selective and one of the top performing schools internationally with an average score of 39.2. 61 sat H/L Maths only 15 got a 7, 67 sat S/L Maths and 18 got a 7. 79 sat Maths Studies and 33 got a 7.
Because selective schools usually base their entrance tests on English/ Maths I would expect there to be a far higher average ability for maths at DS's school and Sevenoaks than from a non-selective school.

DS is still for A levels.

Yes but you can do Maths Studies if you intend doing Arts etc. Looking at the table for DS's school for lower level subjects it was split about 60/40 in favour of Maths Studies. For Maths Studies 95% achieved level 7, for Maths it's 35%. If your Uni offer is based on total points and you don't need Maths you would be mad not to do Maths Studies.

But maths studies is not considered acceptable for anyone wanting to study STEM, economics, geography etc. BoboChic is right that there will be a much bigger group of students taking SL Maths than that taking A level Maths. SL Maths will be taken by people who wouldn't take A level maths in the UK.

But you can do Maths Studies instead of Maths which is very easy. Also there is Literature and Performance as an alternative to just English. I'm not sure how different this is to English.

The population that takes IB isn't comparable to the population that takes A-level. And, since mother-tongue and maths are obligatory for all IB candidates, you would expect a wide spread of marks.

Well a 7 at HL in IB isn't directly comparable to an A at A-level - only 3% of candidates worldwide get a 7 in HL English so it's obviously much harder than getting an A

And yes Temp8, that is the independent advice we had.

disquiet, I'm not so sure, the UK has the top performing IB schools globally, they get a lot of PR from prestigious schools using their qualifications and it is not a good reflection on them if they abandon IB and go back to all A levels. I think Sevenoaks is the only large school now to only offer IB.

As I've said DS's school is very selective with 67% of entries at "7". Regards cohort because Higher level maths is very difficult they only allow the top 25% to take it and even then the % getting 7s is much lower than for any other subject.

It's all been enough to put quite a few boys off doing IB, including DS which is a shame. However, if you don't need maths and can do maths studies instead I think the IB is great.

I checked the latest worldwide stats for IB (May 2014),

                     No. of candidates          5        6        7 

MATH.STUDIES SL 29,235 27% 17% 7%
MATHEMATICS HL 11,784 24% 15% 9%
MATHEMATICS SL 38,926 23% 21% 8%

From this a much lower percentage of candidates get 7s in HL or SL maths than A* in maths or further maths A level. This is probably due to a combination of a different cohort (more students got for HL maths than A Level FM and a more harshly grading. I don't think it can be inferred that the material in HL is harder than that of A level FM.

However if I had a DC who was an able mathematician, I would choose A levels, both for material covered and for fairer entrance criteria

The other problem Figment is that if Higher Maths is basically a double subject at IB you also have 5 others to cover, that is a shed load of work.

DS's school are continuing with the start 4 drop one A level route, but with no AS's. It seems weird doing a subject for a year and having nothing to show you did.

IB is an international qualification, taken in many different countries. Complaints from a handful of UK private schools won't be enough to make them change IB maths (which is perfectly appropriate for many university courses in many countries and indeed perfectly sensible preparation for many UK courses too).

The reason courses ask for 7 at HL maths is because it does cover less content than FM. For highly mathematical courses where FM is necessary/strongly desirable mastering HL maths is needed for students to keep up with those who have FM. If a student already knows that they are interested in a subject which requires FM for the top courses, they are better off doing A levels. But if they only realise this too late I would bet that there are lots of top 10-20 courses (even if not top 3-5 courses) which don't ask for a 7 at HL maths. It's only the very top few courses that can enforce such high grades.

My guess is that many students at high achieving schools will start with 4 A levels and then drop the weakest one part way through/at the end of year 12 if necessary. Students at state sixth form colleges/less high achieving schools may be more likely to start with 3, since very few universities courses will ask for or select based on more than 3.

The problem with the IB higher maths is the very small number getting 7s and that is what some Unis are requesting. I was told by DS's school it was a unique problem with the maths and the big IB schools in the country are speaking to them about it. Having a cynical nature I then checked this out with someone who had taught both who confirmed it and explained what he thought was wrong.

DS is very keen on IB but not taking Higher maths closes some doors, fortunately not all of them. Apparently the lower level maths is easier than A level normal Maths. So DS is still on the A level/IB fence, as are quite a few of his friends. He likes the breadth of the IB and is having difficulty narrowing down his A level choices, but he likes maths and would want it to be one of his main subjects. I'm sure it will all sort out over the next few months. I just wish we'd been told about the maths earlier, but then I think they have been trying to get it sorted.

"So being covered in first year university maths is not a big deal in itself."

Both my DSSs, who are reading Economics and did the French bac S with spé Maths, have reported that there is a lot of swapping of maths skills in the first term between students who have covered different material during their A-level/IB/French bac/whatever.

The Oxford first year quote applies to the calculus type module of the maths options, sorry I don't know enough to be more to be specific. Obviously the teacher had only been to Oxford so wouldn't know what was taught at other Unis.

DS would have liked to do IB for the breadth but he wouldn't want to do FM at A level just normal Maths so he will probably be doing A levels instead. Its annoying because otherwise the IB would suit him a lot better.

it is hard to get 7s in HL maths and a number of courses require a 7. I don't think the material is harder than that in FM (and it does miss out important topics contained in FM) but the correspondence used by many universities between IB HL maths grades and A level FM grades isn't felt to be entirely fair.

"Some IB higher level topics are first year maths at Oxford" is a bit of a misleading statement. First of all, Oxford first year maths is similar to most other top 10-20 maths courses in syllabus (so you could equally write Nottingham first year or Exeter first year). Secondly, a lot of FM topics are on first year maths syllabi, as not all A level boards cover the same topics in the same way. So being covered in first year university maths is not a big deal in itself.

A level maths plus FM covers more maths and is a better option for somebody who wants to study maths/physics/engineering. But IB has other advantages, including breadth of study.

Yes I mean Further Maths, and yes it is harder! Apparently some IB higher level topics are first year maths at Oxford.

Our independent advice has also been that the IB syllabus is a bit patchy and the A level Maths/Further Maths syllabus is better.

DS's head says that the leading IB schools have made the board aware that there is a problem with maths and there has been an improvement but DS will still probably do A levels.