King's Scholarship Exams

Cannot now remember where I read about the Liverpool one, I don't think I made it up .

I remember when I was applying to university staring in disbelief and sorrow at the long, long list of obscure scholarships available - none of which pertained to me. The second sons of destitute clergy from a village within a mile of Thurso, say. Or the red haired daughters of anyone named Clarissa. Or boys under 5 foot nine with an ancestor in the House of Lords who had won the high jump at their prep between 1873 and 1886.

I muttered harsh things about my parents' and grandparents' lack of forethought ...

But surely, surely, with the wonders of modern science, the MN archive and an advance train ticket, even I could build a suitable boy from Liverpool? Wide open field.

I love a project.

Re sixth form scholars, there were about 13 who joined this year I think. One scholarship is a specific drama award, one for music, the Horizon scholarships are for boys from the Middle East, and there is a similar one for Russians, and I think there is also one for boys from Liverpool.

All the rest have to come from state schools, although boys at independent schools can be considered if they are on a bursary. I'm still not sure what type of school your DS is at now OP.

Try not to let your DS worry, though! DS said the test was fun, and according to Eton that's what a lot of the children say. There's really no need to prepare, so don't worry about that. Keep the effort for the KS prep! I think you need to approach the whole thing as fun, actually. I venture to suggest that if your DS has any chance if enjoying College, he's going to enjoy KS prep: you need to think of that challenge and learning and fun as the point, with actually getting a KS a bonus that would be lovely if it happened.

Mmm.... The point I was making is that a prep school comes into its own in preparing for CE/KS once the child has an offer.

"So you shouldn't feel that a non-prep background is any disadvantage prior to receiving a conditional offer. "

Point of detail : OP isn't trying to secure a conditional offer. It's KS or nothing.

But, the underlying point is valid. Eton uses computer-based tests (used by no others) which no-one knows how to prepare for. It is meant to be a test of ability. And yes everyone is nervous.

OP I must make this point just to reassure you - I have never taught in any prep school (or any school) so have no idea what information is shared over the sherry but I can tell you quite categorically that on pre-test morning boys at even the most successful preps wake up sick with nerves and with no idea of precisely what they will face in the test. And when the results come out a fair proportion of them will be disappointed. I can also tell you that boys from other types of school (state and independent) are just as likely to do well in the test.

I daresay prep school Heads' Reports may be more precisely attuned to what the senior school is looking for - and the boys may have had more opportunity to try out a wide range of activities in school which their HMs can speak honestly about.

But as far as I can see the one distinct advantage boarding prep school boys have at this stage is that they can enthusiastically confirm (if it's the case) their enjoyment of the boarding experience during their interview.

So you shouldn't feel that a non-prep background is any disadvantage prior to receiving a conditional offer.

As your DS is so enthusiastic it might be wise to allow him to take the January test. He's as likely as anyone else to get through.

The level is of an Oxbridge First Year standard.. Peteneras I realise that you are rightly proud of your DS's past achievements in getting a KS but frankly it is ridiculous to claim that because the essay questions are thoughtful and open ('Oxbridge style' interview or essay questions') the candidates are required to be of the standard of a first year undergraduate in the depth, knowledge and sophistication of their answers. IEven KS students fail to get through Oxbridge interviews which according to you would be despite them having been at first year undergraduate level before they even started at the school.

”Peteneras is mis interpreting the standard expected of the candidates from the inserted quote , being asked Oxbridge style question does not mean that candidates will be at the same level in their answers.”

The inserted quote: sieglinde(19/04/2011):
“The King's Scholarship papers at Eton are the hardest CE-level papers I've ever seen, so tough that I actually thought of recycling one for Oxford admissions.”

And again by the same poster (15/08/2012):
“The Challenge is the (old?) name for Westminster entrance exam/scholarship exam. Used to be very very tough, but now I think it's probably less tough than Eton's scholarship exam, which is the toughest I've ever seen.”

The point is not about Oxbridge style question - a question is a question no matter what style it is presented. Rather, it is the Oxbridge level of toughness that the said Oxford don was at pain to put it.

Eton has another exam for candidates being asked Oxbridge style questions but does not require candidates will be at the same level in their answers. It is called, Common Entrance.

Actually, though that's often said, mine gave me a very coherent report of what was in it - including explaining what he'd left out of his descriptions when he was asked back at prep school because he didn't think it fair that some people should know in advance what was coming! So I won't share, except to say that I agree that preparing VR and NVR, or anything else specific, would have been pointless.

It's unlikely that anyone whose child entered at sixth form would open a KS thread ...

No boy I've ever known could give any coherent answer as to what the computerised test involved.

Peteneras is mis interpreting the standard expected of the candidates from the inserted quote , being asked Oxbridge style question does not mean that candidates will be at the same level in their answers. I also know of successful candidates who did not take all papers. As you point out Eton17 it is a competitive exam and without knowing from experienced teachers what sort of marks their successful candidates were getting in their practice papers it is difficult to judge relative chances.

Thanks, peteneras, very interesting. I didn't know it was usual to take all the papers, though since they judge you on your best ones, I suppose it's a sensible strategy. Unless my memory is playing me false, though, I know of at least one KS who didn't take more than the required 3.

I don't suppose you remember how your DS had felt about the papers that led to those grades, e.g., whether he had done all the questions and believed his work to be correct, or whether he had left some parts undone? Without a yardstick, of course, B+ means nothing; one might have to do the entire paper with no more than two tiny slips to get that, or a good attempt at one question might suffice - the marking policy could be set however the markers decided.

I think your reasoning at the end is faulty, though, because it doesn't consider that boys need not perform evenly across the board. Suppose half the candidates on each paper score "well" (A, A- or B+ - let's stipulate that A+ doesn't exist :-) ) the other half "moderately" (B-,BC or C). Given a reasonable number of candidates whose scores on the different papers are a mixture of "well" and "moderately", it's easy for there to be few enough who score "well" on the compulsory papers and three optional ones for the roll to be formed of all and only those candidates. That is, from the information given, we can't deduce that anyone ever scores less than C (though of course they may).

”They do have some words about not having to be equally good at everything, though.”

The exact words, Eton2017, are as follows:

’In most papers of the examination there is a wide range of questions, so that any clever boy has ample opportunity to prove his worth; the examiners are keen to reward boys who show real ability, even if in only a limited field.’

It seems to me those words have been there for as long as I can remember from time immemorial. But I would advise great caution here!

Just as all seasoned Medicine applicants to medical schools would tell you, all they are looking for are 3 A-Levels and some decent GCSE’s to meet their entry requirements. But in real life, you have cases with people having 4 As at A-Level and a full suit of straight As GCSE’s and still fail to gain an offer.

Far from showing (real) ability only in a limited field, all the KS’s I’ve known took the full 10 subjects of the King’s Scholarship exams - 4 compulsory subjects plus all 6 of the optional papers, though only 3 are required. Amazingly, the final grades achieved in all 10 papers are astoundingly high taking into consideration these papers would be of the level of an Oxbridge admissions standard for an 18-year-old according to this Oxford admissions tutor! What these 13-year-olds are achieving is pretty stunning!

”I'd love to know what kind of marks successful scholars do actually get. Any mothers of KSs here who could comment?”

I’ve managed to rummage through my computer hard-drive and found this from some years back. So as not to out myself, I’ve airbrushed some of the details including the grades of the compulsory papers (which one has to ace anyway). The object is to show the typical grades expected of the harder optional papers (Maths B included).

From the details given and assuming most things stay the same, a few things can be deduced from the King’s Scholarship exams in order to evaluate one’s chances of winning a KS:

1. 'Very few candidates are given an A+.'
   In other words, they don’t exist. I’ve never come across anyone who has one.

2. 'Approximately half the candidates in each subject are graded B-, BC or C'.
   Which tells me the other half (appx 75 boys out of a typical 150 in any annual cycle) are graded B or better OR worse than C.

3. Since 14 are awarded KS and 5 or 6 OS etc (total appx 20) it reasons that the rest i.e. 55 boys are graded worse than C. In conclusion, appx 130 boys out of a typical 150 annual cohort score no better than a B- in any given subject.

OP if it's the late pre-test as I suggested above he will take the computerised test and have a brief interview. The third element will be a report from his current school.

(Or it could all be entirely different ...)

'In short, a boy who needs a personal tutor for whichever subject sadly, has no “real ability”. '

I would disagree, if the tutoring is to ensure familiarity with type of exam and tips on showing ability in the way the markers are looking for.

If OP's DS really can do the maths papers well (in the time allowed) then he has the ability in that subject. But he'll need to sit at least 7 papers, and even if he's hoping for an offer based in maths brilliance, he'll still need to show well enough on all the other required ones. And if he's not had exposure to the style of exam before, then that's going in with a disadvantage. And tutoring might reduce or eliminate that.

I think we all agree that your DS would need to be exceptional to be successful at this stage having not been accelerated by an experienced prep school. Exceptional in maths / science and a highly creative or extremely well read writer. The essay questions are not answered to the level of a first year Oxbridge undergraduate but are open enough to allow highly able boys to shine.

Abriata - far as I can see, at the moment, or at least until now, they both did and didn't need a conditional offer.

It used to be that the KS was (amongst other things) a risky last chance for boys who, for whatever reason, did not take the yr 6 pre-test. At some stage it became a requirement for potential KS candidates (without conditional offers) to take a pre-test early in yr 9 to determine whether or not the KS was realistic. They were only allowed to take the scholarship exam if they passed the pre-test. So in a sense they also needed a conditional offer - just granted at a later date.

(I am certain that I read this in the last few years but the KS info is being rejigged and I can't find any reference to it currently. You or others here may know more about this than I ever possibly could.)

So it's probably the case that the OP's son will have to take a pre-test early next year.

I believe whoever that advised your son to take the KS exams probably meant well ...

I suppose it depends whether the answer was given as a routine response to a routine query in general by admin staff - not specific to this boy, or whether it was firm advice offered by teaching staff to this particular boy after some detailed assessment or report of his capabilities.

It's frustrating - her DS may well easily have been capable of getting a pre-test offer and working steadily towards CE/KS. He would have to be exceptional to make this last minute dash worth the stress.

"OP -- has your son been told he can take the KS exam even without having a conditional offer? I thought KS exam was only for boys with a conditional offer."

Yes, you can take it with no conditional offer, as long as you register for the exam by the deadline.

Boys with conditional offers take it a) because they hope to be scholars (obviously) and b) if they do well enough, they'll be exempted from CE requirements.

Scholarships are the only route into Eton for those without a conditional offer.

There are +/- 14 KS per year.