A Level classes - is this acceptable?

Small class size is some kind of religion in England. I question it! There are many other drivers of pupil learning and achievement.

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

Wondered how long it would be Bobo before you stated on the inference that teachers want an easier life

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

If it is better for the teacher that often means better for the students. Smaller groups are often easier to manage because you know the kids better-if you know the kids better you can tailor your lessons better so they will do better. Everybody wins.

"Less marking" means more time for planning better lessons or more time marking the work you've taken in to a higher standard. Again, everybody wins.

Your post makes it sound like you think teachers are lazy and trying to look for a way to avoid extra work. For the vast vast majority of teachers that isn't the case. Class size correlates very well with outcome (smaller is better). Why would any teacher want to teach a larger class when they know kids do better in smaller ones?

mummytime - perhaps not, but the learning outcomes are pretty impressive!

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark - four or two is a hopeless number, I agree, especially in humanities where it is vital that people understand different perspectives/get enthused about particular books or periods of history etc. Large classes can have lots of energy and stimulation. That has to be managed, however, and that takes a skilled teacher and DC who have been educated to behave respectfully in a larger group.

I do think that a large part of the attractiveness of small groups is how much easier they are on the teacher in terms of behaviour management and less marking.

BoboChic but its not really teaching!

At my DDs sixth form they have a limit of 20 in a class, and the classrooms only have a maximum of 20 seats, so it can't go over. Some other local Sixt forms do have classes going up to 22 or 24.
The thing I don't like about some of the private schools is their classes can be too small; one school had 1 pupil doing A'level Textiles, another had 1 doing Greek (for the first she'd have done better transferring to the local Comp which has an excellent Textiles department).

noblegiraffe - tbh I always found my DSSs' teachers remarkably assiduous about marking. Super quick turnaround, very thorough. But that was their school.

In French state Lycées teachers often don't mark homework (though there are lots of in-class written tests etc that are marked). They set homework and then put up a very detailed correction/explanation on line one week later. Pupils can work individually/in groups/with a tutor as they please. I have seen excellent results with this method but of course it is the very antithesis of spoon feeding.

Bobo I think your response just highlights the differences between the French and English systems. Our A levels are far better taught in smaller classes as discussion and opinion forming are integral to the syllabuses. Clearly there is such a thing as too small too.

Dd is in classes of around 15 which seems ideal, although she is taking popular subjects at a large college so no issues around tutor availability.

My DC have classes of 12-16 I believe.
DD has one class of 5.
However this particular subject lends itself to small groups and the types to choose it tend to be confident.

There is an optimum minimum for class sizes as well as a maximum-fewer than five students and people often feel uncomfortable talking. I don't think that stacks up as an argued to let classes get as big as the school can fit in.

Same teacher, smaller class (sensible lower limit) the students will do better pretty much every time.

I agree with Bobo. In my A level classes there were 4 of us for French, 4 for German and 2 for History.

It was like pulling teeth for all of us.

My largest class at the moment is 34. They say far more than ever I did in those teeny tiny groups.

It isn't so much the whole class discussion that is the problem-it is the individual attention and proper marking that a class of that size will miss out on.

Forgetting the class work, a teacher cannot mark the work of 37 pupils in as much depth as 20.

Yes, they can, SheGot. It has much more to do with teaching style than numbers.

I had some very small classes myself at school and, tbh, the discussion ran out of steam after a while. We were very young and rather ignorant

Can 37 people really have their say? In a meaningful way?

Certainly in science where there are really difficult concepts to grasp class size makes a huge difference. If all you are able to do is present the material but not spend much time talking with each student and helping those who don't get it the results will suffer. The best teacher in the world can't be in thirty places all at once.

I don't agree with that - based on experience! However, large class sizes tend to require more teaching time if everyone is to have their say.

Large classes are fine for the passing on of information but they don't allow discussion of ideas within the peer group.

My DSS2, in a French Catholic (private, selective) school was in a class of 37 for the two final years of Lycee. His brother (same school) was in a class of 29.

It was absolutely fine! They learned exceptionally well.

TBH class size is not the be all and end all. My DD (10) is in a class of 8 for History and Geography and 11 for Spanish. It's fine but nothing special.

The quality of teaching is far and away more important than the quantity of pupils.

To be honest all a level classes have a huge spread of ability (unless you're amazingly lucky to be in a school that sets for a level-I never have). The sheer numbers of students does mean it's a lot harder to help those who are struggling.

At DDs college most of the classes are around the 25 mark.
If its AS, chances are after half term the numbers will drop to around that.
If there is more than one class (eg there are over 700 taking maths AS there) then the teachers will do sections of the curriculum with lots of sets.

However, rote book learning does not sound good.
Worth taking up with a pastoral tutor?

I had 2 teachers for French, for German and for History.

As far as class size goes, I guess that is quite big. Ability level should in theory not be that relevant as presumably they are all post GCSE.