A Level classes - is this acceptable?

ZaZa - I teach and examine this subject so despite the thread getting derailed as usual in secondary and by the same posters hopefully we can get it back on track of your concerns.

Whilst 30 is a big class for A Level, it is unfortunate due to budget cuts etc that some classes have resulted in being larger than previously. There are also differing numbers taking a subject every year, and this can also impact on the numbers.

For this subject as well as being aware of the theory behind each aspect there is a large percentage of success dependent on the application and answering question in context (for example, the GCSE Unit 3 paper this year had 22/90 marks available based on the context alone; therefore a student could have answered the paper with perfect theoretical answers, but if they fail to use context and apply to the business in question, then the highest mark they could have gained would have been a D on that paper)

This skill is so vital to success in the exams that practice and technique is given as much priority as the teaching. I run courses like this myself, have one block of teaching the theory and another on exam practice/technique not only to secure the theory taught but also the use of context and application.

please PM if you want further information/help

So lovely to see the usual suspects wittering among themselves about nothing to do with the thread

ZaZa
It may be worth finding out a bit more about the overall teaching structure
eg DDs college has the huge classes
BUT
every lunchtime there is a "club" for each of the big subjects where students work together with AS and A2 pupils and some tutors, each table "chewing" on a particular issue
so that there is effectively a tutor system running in parallel with the lessons.

If your son's school do not have such, see if the HoD could start it as it will help with their results as well as your individual problem

I guess OP have looked through Sixth Form before you send your DS to this Sixth form. How well is this year's A level result for this subject?

If you can't move your DS to another school, then you have to encourage him to do his best under the current situation. I guess the class size can't be changed due to funding.

Please read my reply again. I said you derailed another thread.

I'm answering questions, not derailing a thread.

Bobo derailed another thread on this board self-promoting her services she provides to French students.
Please ignore her.
As she stated just now she has no experience of the A-levels herself yet tries to tell us she knows it.

Content plus interviews with pupils/teachers/heads/universities.

Big takeaway is that so-called academic A-levels are very misleading versus other systems - some are intellectually rigorous and demanding by international comparison and others are of an embarrassingly low standard. IB is much better on this score.

So no experience at all then?

You compared content.

I didn't do A-levels myself, SheGot. However, I did an analysis of several different European high school leaving exams a few years ago, and raked through the content of A-levels/IB/French bac/EB curriculum and examinations for a few subjects. It was very eye-opening! It was a follow up to another study that had been done on whether the EB was fit for purpose, comparing it to A-levels/IB/French bac/Abitur/Swedish end of school diploma, so there was a timeline to it.

Complain to HOD that quality of teaching is unacceptable.

But d you have any recent experience of A levels (you must have done yours 30 years ago, no?).

I think British universities are great. I'm not keen on A-levels, however!

noble - I'm sure you're assiduous. I'm just saying that we never had an issue with speed or quality of marking for the DSSs, even in very large classes. Don't ask me how the teachers do it. In maths, their most important subject in their Bac S, they were exceptionally well taught and DSS1 has always been very clear that he thought he was at least as well as prepared as any of the students who had done A-level or IB maths/fm. I do not doubt that the same will prove true of DSS2 who had the same teachers. He is at a different university (just started) so we will wait a bit to see what he says.

Of course young people don't know much yet .

But a good teacher should not simply tell them more stuff. They should insist they stop, think, and then reformulate their argument based on what they do know to date. Then verbalise it.

That takes time.

And of course such sessions run alongside the knowledge- passing lessons, or often mix the two.

The balance creates, when done well, a very rounded education (one reason our universities are so popular with students from other countries).

Bobo I'm remarkably assiduous about marking, with a very quick turnaround. But it took me 2.5 hours to mark 18 A-level maths homeworks properly the other night. 37 scripts would take 5 hours which would mean 2 evenings work which would be impossible because every evening (apart from Friday and Saturday because I'm a slacker) is allocated a class for marking.

But if marking lower down the school wasn't done because I was simply sticking the answers on the board and not giving personalised feedback, then I could probably handle 37 scripts.

I wouldn't know my class very well though. In a smaller class you get to know them and their strengths and weaknesses much better.

I don't think there's much to be done about class size, kicking up a fuss won't do anything, u could move him to a collage with smaller classes if u like but it is what it is.
Of course the option would be for the school to limit the numbers but then we'd be reading about how someone's (maybe urs) child Couldnt do the subject they needed to do for uni.
A level is very a different learning structure, so if half the time there's disscussion with one teacher, the other is reflective learning with the other - Id say that was pretty standard
It took me a while to get used to the independent side many years ago too, but I'm sure ur son will get to grips with the structure soon

"If the discussion stalls or becomes repetitive it just means that the facilitator is not good enough."

Oh come on ;). Poor facilitators are legion but so are ignorant 16/17 year olds!

As I say I think large classes are perfectly adequate for passing on knowledge. Small groups have little advantage here.

This is why lectures at university tend to be large.

An expert passing on what they know, with minimal interaction with the audience, is a fine thing.

However, for a proper rounded education this needs to be balanced against routine peer lead sessions, where the expert acts as facilitator. These groups need to be smaller. If the discussion stalls or becomes repetitive it just means that the facilitator is not good enough.

"Which is why it can be a bit of a shock when you change countries for University."

My DSSs have had no "shock" at all when moving from French schooling to English university. On the contrary: DSS1 felt he was rather better prepared for independent learning and analysis than the British. French education is not all about rote learning - it is far from perfect (ditto A-levels) but what it really does do is prepare students to work independently.

I notice how you have failed to engage with the substance of my post explaining why smaller classes are better for both teachers and students.

Would you like to provide a counter argument as to why you believe with the same teacher pupils learn better in larger classes?

Bobo - in France I think learning is much more fixed on Chalk and Talk, with students making notes.

In the UK the syllabus is much more about synthesising material and arguing with it. My daughter has just been studying the difference between "stating an opinion" and "arguing a case", and originality is also looked for, not just regurgitation. As part of learning at Sixth form level then there needs to be a lot of debate and discussion. This is easier if the class sizes are not too big, and not too small either.

To be honest French, English, and other "qualifying for University" qualifications are based on very different ideas about learning and what is required or desirable. Which is why it can be a bit of a shock when you change countries for University.

BOBO - will you ever quite understand that the English and French systems of education are different, and therefore your experience of the French system has absolutely no relevance to us English.

what works for French bac (and many of the SE Asian quals as an aside) is rote learning, remembering facts. A Levels include a much larger element of analysis, application of theory and debate than French. Therefore very large classes sizes do NOT facilitate this type of learning.