A Level classes - is this acceptable?

I'm sure Millipede is right. It is also no reason to worry.

I still weep at the memory of teaching an AS class of 32 and an A2 class of 30 - my subject is music. The cut off for splitting the group into two was 35. It was, without question, the worst year of my teaching career and I think it was pretty horrible for the students too. However, it was the practical/composition/harmony that broke me; I literally dreamt about marking (I talk in my sleep and my dh used to take the piss out of my nocturnal mutterings). The 'bits' that were more classroom based were really invigorating and the numbers had no negative impact.

Masses of evidence in which case you will have no trouble reassuring Zaza by sharing one or two of the references to these studies of the effect of class size and learning results for A levels. Might have been simpler in answering her concerns than your previous blanket statements.

Have not read all of this thread, but just here to ssy remember now that educstion is compulsory till 18, my dd year was compulsary till 17, the AS Classes were large, but went down considerably for A2 level, (she also had 2 teachers per subject for both years), i think the days of small intimate A level classes are gone now due to the above.

Much experience of younger kids / non selective groups ?

Just that it gets very boring that every Secondary thread is hijacked by the same few people with a very expensive and selective non representative experience .

Hopefully the OP and her son will be able to work something out over the coming terms but if the group stays big they have to work with that, not pontificate about might have beens

I used to teach in HE, Talk, and wrote and published teaching materials. I do have quite a lot of experience of how different sized groups learn.

Bobo
I have read masses of evidence
But you've never actually had to practice what you preach, have you?

DH goes to over 100 schools a year with groups ranging in age from 3 to 25, group sizes from 6 to 900 and ability ranging from extreme learning difficulties to post graduate.

Very small groups before the age of academic specialisation result in the princess effect.
Very large groups in higher academic levels impact on the ability of all voices being heard.

I have read masses of evidence, from lots of countries and international organisations/think tanks. Over the years. In lots of languages!

It's a pet belief of people who adhere to small class sizes to claim that larger classes = lecture style: at both extremes of class size teachers talk more and pupils less, unless we are talking about adjunct classes (e.g. MFL conversation, science practicals). It is not useful to extrapolate from the learning experience of adjunct classes and claim that all classes should be smaller.

I agree that class size alone is not the only determinant of good learning. The trouble is you can't isolate class size from the other factors - teaching quality suffers if you don't know your students as well, assessment and feedback suffers because you cannot physically mark to as high a standard as you'd like to and you can't give the students much individual attention in a very big group (which for A level I'd put at over 20ish). That's why smaller classes are better for students.

We clearly disagree on this. My years of teaching experience tell me one thing and your whatever it is that you do with looking at qualifications tells you something else. The thread wasn't about this.

Bobo and you base your conclusions on what objective reviewed evidence or teaching experience? Interestingly countries with large classes of 30 plus usually have longer school days as well as a lecturing style of teaching.

PurpleDaisies - I don't think that class size can increase indefinitely with no impact on learning. Large classes only work where there is quite a significant degree of selectivity and where pupil behaviour and engagement are good. This thread is about class size for 16/17 year olds in an academic setting ie both those criteria should be fulfilled.

What I do believe is that people can get hung up on small class size as a driver of learning. It intuitively sounds like a good idea but isn't nearly such a good idea in practice - or certainly not for every lesson.

Fellow teacher here too-I broadly agree with those numbers. I was interested as to what bobo thinks-she appears to be arguing that larger classes have no impact on leaning at all, which is a little bizarre.

Purple
From DHs experience off visiting all sorts of schools over many years, the minimum feasible group for any age or subject is 15

the best dynamics happen at about 24
maintaining attention and stopping chatting among selves becomes a problem over 30

What do you define as a large enough peer group then?

No, I wouldn't expect a smaller class to do better with the same teacher. Peer group interaction is a crucial driver of learning - if you haven't got a large enough peer group, class dynamics suffer and - contrary to what some people seem to think - more lecture-style teaching takes place to fill the gaps.

'Doesn't need'

drivers of learning which are quality of teaching, pupil engagement, speedy and accurate self evident and does n't pointing out. However to make the statement that large classes are better than small for discursive learning with (as PurpleDaises states) all things being equal is rather ridiculous.

So bobo how about answering my earlier question-with the same teacher would you expect a smaller class to do better?

Pupil engagement, speedy and accurate feedback are much easier to achieve in small classes.

viewwater - it is a false comparison to draw parallels between Oxbridge style tutorial teaching and A-level teaching and conclude that the lower the teacher:pupil ratio the better. At A-level the amount of independent preparation per class by students is tiny in comparison to Oxbridge tutorials.

Again, the obsession with small class sizes detracts from the really important drivers of learning which are quality of teaching, pupil engagement, speedy and accurate feedback.

Talkin I agree about resource allocation. My point was different ie small numbers are not 'hopeless' to achieve good discursive teaching. A bit of a misleading overstatement.

At degree level where there is no standard measure of outcomes, one to one tutorials may be appropriate in certain institutions that like it that way.

At A Level where there are standardised marking schemes, moderated exam marking and publication of detailed exam results, it is not a good use of resources.

In state schools with only £4000 per pupil per year, one to one is a luxury they cannot afford.

In my school one chose A levels depending on whether or not one liked the teacher as the groups were so small, rather than whether one liked or was good at the subject.
Not a good route to excellent outcomes IMHO.

four or two is a hopeless number, I agree, especially in humanities where it is vital that people understand different perspectives/get enthused about particular books or periods of history etc.
Derailing thread again but that statement makes me laugh since an Oxbridge education (not judged hopeless internationally ) is based on the tutorial system with sometimes only one pupil. The tutorial system will not work with a lazy tutor or passive student with a closed mind. The latter will not be helped by open debate of very large classes if they choose not to engage and thus be challenged.

Large classes may be used as a lecture style teaching of content or working through problems with the teacher on hand to help. More learning can be supplemented by small group tutorials (unlikely in schools), tutoring outside school ( not possible for many) or self-motivated student study groups.
Zaza the latter might be an idea for your DS if you can persuade him to to find another a couple of students to work with. They can then direct their queries as a group to the teachers.

Bobo - I agree with you and have a lot of respect for the French system.

OP - the class size isn't ideal but they can't change it unless they buy in another teacher. I don't think the quality of teaching can be commented on before there is any assessment. It's true there are very different styles.