MFL at secondary level, is this normal?

" am very grateful my children did not receive a dumbed down education. This is what it amounts to. I am glad some schools do recognise the needs of all the children and find the money."

Once again- state schools being criticised for not being able to provide what private schools do. It is ridiculous to say things like they should "find the money". In fact it's so ridiculous I think I'll assume it's just a wind up suggestion, and ignore it.

Most schools would dearly love the money to afford the curriculum choices they would like to offer. It's not a case of finding the money if it is simply not there.

I did not mean GCSE. I was referring to a child that wanted to do (for example) History with a language. They stand a better chance of getting into the History degree course if they want the language as well. The language departments in many universities are needing students so a student with an A level in French wanting to do joint honours will often get plenty of offers.

I know Schools prioritise spending according to the majority of students. Obviously choices have to be made. I am very grateful my children did not receive a dumbed down education. This is what it amounts to. I am glad some schools do recognise the needs of all the children and find the money.

Greek? gunpowderplot would you mind PMing me and tell me whereabouts you are? I haven't yet come across a school offering Greek nowadays.

I think the language situation may change, as this year's Y7 have to sit a language as part of GCSEs (compulsory EBacc subjects)

It is interesting that gifted and talented children would be catered for in maths and sciences but languages are not given a second glance! I disagree here I'm afraid. I cater for my AGT linguists very well and 25% of last year's GCSE cohort achieved an A*. A separate language is a separate subject with an entirely different vocabulary, syntax, grammar system and cultural norm. Science and Maths can cater to AGT ably by having further maths and single sciences covered in the same lesson time through appropriate differentiation and light touch support (well, lighter than I could do anyway - I cannot teach an entirely different language at the same time as French!)
I do tell parents that a language is desirable at GCSE for university study but I believe that only UCL currently lists a GCSE MFL Language as an entry requirement.

DD's school started offering French and Spanish to new Yr7s in the top set, French only for everyone else. There is an option to do both at GCSE, however the school has stopped offering German because they couldn't recruit a suitable teacher for it . DD1 is doing French at GCSE (Yr10), DD1 is still doing two MFL but has already said she wants to drop Spanish for GCSE.

So. Where do you get the money from to give the top set kids two MFL?

From the bottom set literacy programme, perhaps?

I hate the mumsnet assumption that education should be skewed to benefit the most able.

It is interesting that gifted and talented children would be catered for in maths and sciences but languages are not given a second glance! I don't know why schools in cities don't share teaching. One does French, the other Spanish and sort out a MFL curriculum for both schools. I wonder if parents know that often universities like applicants who want to do a degree that includes a language and like to keep their language departments open with such students. The chance of getting onto a course is then greatly improved. Such a shame when schools do not do the best for their brighter pupils. Even if they just represent 7% of the school. This probably explains under achievement and why children do not access the best universities and why privately educated children do better.

Schools in poorer areas tend to have very high numbers of pupil premium students, who attract a lot of money. That's one reason.

We went to an open evening the other day, at a large comprehensive, not a wealthy area. They apparently offer French, German, Spanish, Latin and Greek.
If they can do it, why does almost no other state school offer that kind of choice?

The language(s) offered will depend on teacher knowledge and senior management decisions/support. I have just left teaching (moved abroad for dh's job) and we used to offer French one year and Spanish the next. A crazy system which meant that the children could never choose a language and the teaching staff all felt like we were preparing everything twice. The head and senior management however had been pushing for years to only teach one language as they felt it was easier to recruit teachers for just one language rather than two. Since I left, they've finally moved to French only for all subsequent new starters, but have committed to seeing out the existing Spanish cohorts. I really think that the language provision offered in school is entirely down to senior management recruitment policy.

Our school offer only one language (French) - but then we only have 150 students and one languages teacher (me). Most year groups are taught in one class at KS3 which would mean having only one lesson of say French and German per week as a result rather than two of one. This may benefit the strongest but would be at the detriment of 75% of the class for whom two and a half hours a week is barely enough. However, approximately half of all students opt to continue to GCSE and of these one third go on to AS/A level. None in my tenure (yet) have gone on to university. But, I do know that one current A level student has started German this year from scratch. We might not offer two languages but we do very well with just one.

I left high school in 2001 with GCSE French and German - but my parents had had to pay for a private tutor as the school didn't have enough numbers to run a dual linguist option class (only six students from 160). This isn't exactly a new position - the more options a school has, the fewer opt for each one. We need to offer options for all - not just the academic.

"But what about any able linguist Bertrand? They are patently not catered for by this policy. Some bright children do go to comprehensives!"

I am talking about a school with 7% high attainers. They have better things to do with their time and money than offer an extra language.

I think one (increasing) problem is that ever since languages became non-compulsory at GCSE, fewer and fewer students are choosing to take them. Even in fairly academic schools, students might opt for one, but not all that many choose to take two to GCSE level. So it does seem that school are no longer able to offer as much choice as they used to.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, but in my area at least it's the case.

The schools we've just viewed offered a range, from just two to six.
I was a bit disappointed with the one that offered only two (French & German) as everything else about the school was fabulous, but that seems quite a weak offering.

milly you are quite right, but if there are only a few high ability children and the school has a tight budget, their priority will be to create a curriculum that is richer in core than in options. It's not fair but that's often the way it is. If they have a spare £30,000, do they employ an additional maths teacher and make the sets smaller in each year group, or do they pay for a German teacher for the 20 top kids to do an additional language? And if they pay for her, and she then leaves, how confident are they that they can replace her with another German specialist, given they are becoming quite rare? Difficult decisions.

A lot will have to do with staffing. Nearly all MFL teachers can offer French, not all can offer Spanish or German. Since MFL were made optional in about 2002 I believe, the number taking it has halved or more, and this has had a knock on effect on teacher training of course, as these students are now at the age where some would have been good linguists.

But what about any able linguist Bertrand? They are patently not catered for by this policy. Some bright children do go to comprehensives! I know those who are poor at English are unlikely to be good at MFLs but, this does not apply to every child, even in schools with lots of low achieving children. There will be some high achieving children too! Why can't they be catered for in an appropriate way to meet their needs?

Ds's school offers French or Spanish til year 9a then top sets only take one forward to GCSE.

However, it is a school with a very high % of low ability kids and the priority has to be getting them to a decent level in English. A child who is struggling in their mother tongue is not in q position to take on another language as well.

That is still one MFL taught in normal time for all children though. Not good preparation for able linguists - free school or not.

French and a couple of German tasters thrown in in year seven.
French with Spanish added for set three upwards in year 8.

I am surprised that a state school with 550 pupils including 6th form is financially viable! Is this a state school? At my DD's independent school, 4 languages are offered with 420 pupils. Bigger state schools usually do offer more than one language and 1200 is not big. I know another school in West Oxfordshire which is circa 2000 and serves a rural area.

I agree that it is likely to be a non academic school that cannot attract MFL teachers and is the one that will only offer one language. There is a huge problem with this!

Children who are good at MFL, and want to do it at university, can then only offer, usually, 1 MFL language at A level. This is poor preparation for an MFL degree. There has been limited opportunity for the child to prove he/she is good at languages. The language then just becomes an "add on" to other A levels and some MFLs are not taught ab initio at degree level. You must have the A level. Just doing one language at A level prevents joint honours in two languages that have been studied at A level, which a lot of students like to do. Eg, French and German, German and Spanish etc.

Yes, more languages should be offered. No wonder MFL courses at universities struggle to get state educated students if this is what happens. It definitely happens in my neice's school. Last year, for French, she had 5 different teachers. She is only taught French and was offered no other option. They are failing any child who is a potential linguist. It is disgraceful.

Fairly common around here.
Mind, ds started at one that offered both French and German (the fact there was a 2nd language was def. a positive on our list). After a year of German in Yr8, the German teacher left and was never replaced - so it became another school that only taught 1 MFL. Just so you keep in mind things can change in any of the schools, so remember to look at a whole list of comparisons and tot up the pros and cons, rather than basing it all on one thing
dds' school - same size as ds's - offers French, German and Spanish, so I don't think it's all to do with the size of intake.