Seriously though, why ARE some state secondary schools allowed to select a proportion of their intake? And I'm not talking about religion here.

Slightly off topic but someone described Harris CP as the most over subscribed comp? Has anyone told Kingsdale?!They specifically claimed that multiple times in our dealings with them. All the boasting was a big turn off. And diversity in grammar schools does happen. Immigrant families seem to value education more than most. Non white children more likely to be tutored - read that in newspaper last week. One grammar I have heard under pressure to change the rules to stop the influx of bright (Asian) boys from the inner city using the commuter trains to access the county grammar schools. Upsetting the locals.

The nearest five secondaries to us select by sex and ability or faith. I find this very unfair, even though we are likely to 'gain' in the battle of the sharpest elbows. We probably wouldn't get a place at the sixth nearest because we are too far away, our dc would have to travel to other towns if not eligible for one of the five nearest schools.

Oh BTW Ta1kinPeace The other thing with specialism was if say you local specialist school in science was a Catholic school, then being non-catholic but amazingly gifted in science you couldn't go there.

The best bit was my local Arts specialist school having to offer community arts courses.

"As millymollymama says though - those bright working class children from a previous generation who went to grammar school are now middle class. (As are a good number of ex secondary modern pupils.)"

Not necessarily - Grammar schools had drop outs, expulsions etc.

And what is so great about being middle class? This is actually why some bright students dropped out - because they didn't want to leave/be disloyal to their roots and background.

There used to be more class mobility and it wasn't just because of Grammar schools. When I first visited The City (of London, eg. financial institutions); there were still quite a lot of the "ex-barrow boys" types around - they didn't necessarily have many/any qualifications, but were extremely good at wheeler dealing.

sunnydayinmay btw I'm glad it worked out well for you. I come across so many people who have had a kick in the teeth after going through the process that I genuinely feel pleased for those who are happy with the outcome. Well done to you and your DC(s) as you definitely deserved it after what you had to go through :-)

sunnydayinmay Yes I'm around your area.

I've known a number of immigrant families who have moved out of the area after a short while, once they found out the reality behind the "good/excellent" schools in the area.

We've had people move into the area and find out that their DC was only able to apply for one of 18 or 19 places at their nearest school not one of 180 or 190 as they initially thought.

Luckily I am quite happy with all the local schools so not too worried. However, the parents who only want the best (top line figures on paper) are looking rather stressed.

MTHB - think you are in a similar area to me. I spent an hour trying to explain the system to someone who has just moved here from abroad with a year 5 child. By the time you have explained the part selective swherts, bucks grammar, north london etc, your mind explodes. It makes absolutely no sense (and I speak as someone who actually did well out of the whole thing).

I agree that funding of shire counties is a real problem . The emphasis on pupil premium is harming the finances of the grammar schools ! Parents are having to dig into their deep pockets!!! When I worked in Education I never saw poor accommodation that some of the secondary schools had to endure. At least academy status has helped that situation.

I do think all children should have access to coaching or mentoring if their parents want it. Why should it just be well off parents who can access these services? I would quite like PP money to be spent on this in primary schools for appropriate children. Not much hope I expect.

THe specialist school thing became a joke.
There were 8 specialisms.
You could not have the same specialism as any school within 3 miles
so the two schools in the market town had 4 each

Part of the problem was Bliars introducton of "parental choice" - allowing parents to choose other than their catchment school which I am quite open about having benefited from
and at the same time introducing lots of criteria for admissions - that only the educated / MC parents could negotiate
so very rapidly schools polarised.

I've said for a long time that there is no place for selection - by god, gonads or test - in State funded schools.
If people want that they should pay fees.

Yes, there will always be differences between schools
but house prices and rents now are so high that only the very rich can move
and anyway, London schools get nearly double the funding per pupil of Shire County schools - before pupil premium.

We have an academy chain which somehow manages to use its 'fair banding' selection process to exclude children with SEN

There is no way they can use fair banding to exclude SEN children and remain compliant with the Admissions Code. However, it can result in them having a lower proportion of SEN children than other schools in the area. Unfortunately, once people think an academy is using fair banding to exclude less able children there will be fewer less able children applying, which can then become a self fulfilling prophecy.

That is not correct. I know a number of schools that select up to 35% of their intake and Grammars select 100% of their intake.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear. A grammar school can select 100% on academic ability and partially selective schools can select any proportion they want as long as the proportion doesn't go up. But a school selecting by aptitude for its specialist subject(s) can select a maximum of 10% of its pupils.

Our local 'comp' takes 15% of its intake every year on selected ability based on a science test

If you are in England that is a clear breach of the Admissions Code and you should refer them to the Schools Adjudicator. Schools may not select more than 10% of pupils on aptitude and they may not select on aptitude for science at all. It is not one of the permitted subjects.

tiggytape Some grammar schools have already tested the current Year 6 and they've only been back at school for 2 weeks

That is the case in my area. Because most other areas held their exams on Super Saturday they hammered my local schools to use them as a free mock.

grammar schools who claim that they test maths and English instead of reasoning to level the playing field against prep school entrants

This is a new one on me. I don't think the grammar schools care what primary education the DCs have had. They are fully focused on getting the DCs that will churn out the best results. However, a lot of schools have moved to CEM on the basis of it being untutorable, which is very much debatable.

Which is probably the most compelling reason for the grammar system and why it was wrong to scrap it. Back in the day, there was a realistic chance for all primary pupils to get in to their local grammar school if they were in the top third (in terms of academic ability).

No, I don't think so. Just thinking back to my own schooldays, my primary school sent at least 9 girls to the girls grammar school (maybe more whose names I have forgotten) and a similar number of boys to the boys grammar. My friend's school - in the middle of a large council estate - sent two girls to the girls grammar. I am pretty sure that this was typical.

As millymollymama says though - those bright working class children from a previous generation who went to grammar school are now middle class. (As are a good number of ex secondary modern pupils.)

I think it was millymollymama who also said that those who passed the 11+ in Bucks but were sporty didn't choose the Sec Mod which had a sports specialism. (I think I know the one she means.) It also follows that a child who was good at performing arts but not particularly academic wouldn't be able to go to the school with the Performing Arts specialism, because it was a grammar. So the whole system is a farce.

Mintyy I've long been absolutely scandalised by Harris CP's admission criteria. Something happened a few years ago which resulted in them being forced to stop admitting such disproportionate numbers of high achieving children (75% at one point). Whatever it was, it went unnoticed and unreported, and now only 50 something percent of their cohort is high achieving at the outset. I'm sure there is something very unsavoury and secretive behind all this. The Harris empire is pretty hideous IMO.

Re: Kingsdale cohort, yes, it is very m/c now it seems. Very high percentage of children from crunchy families. Was longing for DS to make friends with some Olivers and Jemimas to broaden out his social horizons. However, I was dropping his packed lunch around the other day and spotted him in the playground with his new group of friends, none of whom appear to have floppy hair. Ah well, you can take the boy out of The Cronx....

Presumably the semi selective is not a Bucks school though? There are spaces in Bucks grammar schools, most years, if you qualify. Other schools have their own admissions criteria and I agree lots are a minefield. It still supports the view that all schools should be good and take all local children. Years ago no-one could ever get to another school and you got on the one school bus that picked you up! No choice but did we suffer? Sometimes choice is a very double edged sword!

Millymollymama Not quite sure where you are MTHB a couple of miles away from Chesham Grammar.

Not quite sure where you are MTHB but Bucks grammar school do often have unfilled places and they are about 45% of all senior school places in Bucks. The reason poorer children don't get in is complex but making the schools bigger will not help. There ARE places available! We just don't have enough bright children to go and the schools do not compromise. All those bright ordinary people of yesteryear have become middle class and are all well educated!! Their children sail into the grammar schools but the people in the council houses (that have not been sold) are a very rare parent at a grammar school! This is because society and the provision of council houses has shifted! You cannot turn the clock back.

The children who are difficult to get into the grammar schools typically have non degree holding or non HE parents in a lower managerial type of job or parents who cannot help with higher level school work and do not value books over computers and video games. A generalisation but having seen families in a school where an 11 plus pass was rare I can see how these children, within a different family setting, could have obtained a grammar school place. Not a single child was ever tutored by a professional tutor. No-one could afford it. Few children had self confidence or were articulate either. A few mums and dads tried to tutor - largely unsuccessfully. The new 11 plus was supposed to get over these problems - clearly that is some sort of joke!

Millymollymama what I hate is that children in my area are failing to get into the semi-selectives within walking distance from where they live, yet can get into Bucks schools a few miles away.

Additionally outer catchment places are ring fenced for children living between 2 - 8 miles away from a couple of the semi-selectives yet children living 300 meters away can't get in.

The whole system here is a mess.

No MTHB they do not replace SATs but they give more info about the child and are usually used with in-school assessment of maths, English and science to stream children. Lots of schools don't always believe the SATs results anyway due to over coaching. Obviously if SATs results are available they use them for their official data but other children have to be categorised somehow but obviously most are above level 4. Perhaps a grammar school y7 coordinator would know more?

I have been concerned for many years that poorer children with less high achieving parents have no help to secure a grammar school place.

Which is probably the most compelling reason for the grammar system and why it was wrong to scrap it. Back in the day, there was a realistic chance for all primary pupils to get in to their local grammar school if they were in the top third (in terms of academic ability). Our town had just 2 schools, a grammar and a secondary, the secondary being twice the size of the grammar, so the "top" third went to the grammar, the remaining 2/3 went to the secondary. VERY few went to the church schools which were tiny compared to their size today! Life was simple back then. 11+ pass marks were generally far lower - typically, in the 65-75% range rather than the crazy 90% plus required today in some areas. Tutoring just wasn't necessary in most cases. I have lots of family, friends etc who went to the grammar but who lived in the council estates with poor and/or uneducated parents.

Today's "super-selectives" catchments are a bastardized version of the old grammar system. It's time grammars (and ALL other selective schools) were either scrapped or properly reintroduced in all areas to give everyone a chance of a grammar-style education. Places wouldn't be so scarce if there were more places - simple supply and demand!

Sorry"super selective" that should have read.

If you look at the groups of similar schools on the Ofsted data dashboard you will see that super seek gives tend to be grouped together. I am also very aware that the less selective grammar schools can get stellar value added. They are often the very best schools!

The selection test for Bucks never tallies with level 5 SATs results and few children get level 6 for everything so I cannot see why a head would worry unless they are at one of the high expectation primary schools that I had better not name!