Moving to Buckinghamshire for good schools

We did similar with mixed results. DCs hated the villageprimary we sent them to when we first moved but we were able to move to a fantastic prep. Their experience of the grammars have been mixed. Do feel free to PM if you want to know more re grammars / other near Amersham

Yes, Sir Thomas Freemantle. It opened because parents were disgruntled about the constant problems at the secondary school in Buckingham. It opened in the old Winslow secondary school buildings about 2 years ago. In 2014 it had 111 pupils. It is expected to get new premises in the future. It depends what you want. It cannot possibly compete with The Royal Latin grammar school in Buckingham, either educationally or for sport, music and anything else really! It just depends if you hate the Buckingham school enough to go with STF and take a flyer. Personally I would live in Waddesdon catchment, but children from Winslow have got into the Cottesloe school in Wing in recent times. You can commute from Wing to Leighton Buzzard for the main line train to Euston. Wing children are catchment for the Aylesbury Grammars.

I love in bucks
There are a high percentage of private primaries which get the children into the grammars. The state doesn't prep so they are at an automatic disadvantage.
Only a couple of children got into challoners at our primary last year. I don't know too much about the other secondaries though.

The admissions policy for Upton Court clearly says they have an appeals mechanism via an independent panel. This will be for the near misses. Obviously the admissions policy says they are a grammar school and select via the 11 plus and candidates must score 111. However appeals are allowed. It is not a breach of the admissions policy and it is mandatory that they have an appeals system. There is an admissions code and they must follow it. Whether appeals are successful or not is another matter. I bet some are.

I don't really understand why it matters if the grammar schools have vacancies or not, or whether there is marginal over provision. It might impact on the neighbouring LAs schools if the better children come into Bucks. It does give parents choice though. Some of the secondary schools have vacancies too. In Bucks there are a few more places than needed and this has not been helped by the establishment of a free school that was not needed. Basically the very best schools don't have vacancies and those who choose Upton Court are maybe rather different from those who choose the Dr Challoners schools in Bucks for example. Slough is different and parents may not want to travel so far to a school in Slough, for various reasons. Aylesbury High school takes 50% out of catchment children. You can live in Hertfordshire or MK and be ok. 15 miles away. They will extend the area as far as they want to fill up and it is illegal not to do so if there are suitable candidates. Would you prefer to see the size of the Bucks grammars reduced so that they make 50% of staff redundant?

In fact this document ( www.buckscc.gov.uk/media/3110612/Allocation-of-secondary-places-2nd-round-April-2015.pdf ) tells you about allocations into bucks grammar schools this year.

Wycombe High School was under-subscribed. And all the other schools have a very healthy catchment of between 8 and 21 miles.

So none of them you have to live close to in order to get in.

Their admissions policy does not allow it. They can only admit pupils according to their admissions policy. I've never heard of someone getting in on appeal who was close to the mark, but maybe it does happen. It would certainly be a breach of their admissions policy.

Being 'outstanding' does not mean it's a good school. People aren't choosing it because there are so many better grammar schools near by. There are more grammar school places in the slough area (and in bucks) than are needed.

Upton Court Geammar still has over 1000 pupils though. They are an academy and select by 11 plus. They are not a Buckinghamshire school so I don't know what selection test they use. The same applies to them as applies to Bucks grammars one would imagine. Ie: if you don't get the pass mark you only get in by appeal. So as a grammar school they don't allow all children in. They no doubt let pupils in by appeal who are close to bring selected and I cannot see why they would have loads of spaces as they are Outstanding in their 2014 inspection. Slough grammar schools are not quite the same as many Bucks Grammar schools in that they serve a more diverse community. You can never assume that a few spare places in a grammar school means they will let lower achieving in. They just don't do that even though lots of people think they should.

And yet many people living in Bucks wish they lived in other counties where there are no Grammar schools.

Not all grammar schools are full.

Certainly Upton Court (Slough) always has places because they cannot take you if you don't pass the 11+. They're not allowed to. It's not a popular school, and not enough people who pass the 11+ apply to go there. (It is close to 3 other more popular grammars)

This thread has made me think. And knowing what I know now, I wish I had moved to Bucks and my DC went to Bucks schools. 2 of them would have gone to a grammar and 1 wouldn't and all 3 of them would be in better schools then they currently are.

So my advice is to go for it! It's a lovely place to live with lots of very good schools. South bucks :)

Actually you could argue that the grammar schools, technically the most sought after schools, are expanding their catchments due to recruitment of out of county children. Waddesdon is very different to other schools because is actively recruits the children of C of E Churchgoers from far afield. It has not shrunk its catchment. It has been minuscule for years and years. The Royal Latin Grammar School is also C of E but sticks to the 11 plus model.

I think the grammar schools fill up after appeals. However some are not full when the initial allocations are made. There is also a problem, such as the one I outlined in Aylesbury Vale, where insufficient children are getting the pass mark. When less pupils get the 11 plus than anticipated it has most impact on the school with less 1st choice applicants. They become vulnerable to having spaces, and less money. However I am not sure if their admission number has been reduced. I suspect it has not.

I agree, thehumanjam, that Mr Corbyn may want to get rid of grammar schools, but successive Labour governments have failed to do so and, in recent times, have not tried. The Royal Latin School was founded in Buckingham in 1423 (or even earlier) so is not about to throw in the towel to any political whim. It is, like all the other grammar schools, an adademy. Bucks has never had a County Council that was not Conservative, by the way. I would bet a fairly substantial sum of money that grammar schools in Bucks will be around in 10-15 years.

To add a tiny bit to what Milly says above, for Bucks grammar schools, out of county also refers to MK pupils, as they come under a different unitary authority - so Mk borough Council as opposed to bucks County Council, and similarly different education authorities.

Sorry everyone - I cannot add up. There are 4 grammar schools in Aylesbury Vale and 8 secondary schools including one free school which is very small at the moment.

The published admissions numbers are: Grammars - 684, Secondaries and Free School - 1320. This suggests just over 33% of chidren go to the grammar schools, but they do not. For many years Aylesbury Vale has had a lower pass rate than the more southern parts of the County and it has never been 33%. 20 - 24% is nearer the mark. However, the results at the grammar schools (although one is less good) are top class and have continued to be so for many years. Lower achieving children just will not be allowed in over bright children from elsewhere.

I am not sure what admiddions criteria you are referring to, Tulip81, but if it is Waddesdon, you need to remember that the catchment area extends very little beyond Waddesdon, to just a handful of neighbouring villages, and the other chldren are chosen by affiliation to C of E. They may come from as far as 10-15 miles away - and definitely South of Aylesbury! There are children that have to travel through Waddesdon to get to their schools in Aylesbury but cannot get into Waddesdon.

You can check the consistently good secondary schools by looking at the number of Ofsted reports that have declared them to be grade 4 or now, grade 3. Some have a long history of this, e.g. Buckingham School, Burnham, Cressex, Quarrendon (now Aylesbury Vale Academy). Other such as Misbourne and John Colet have blips but, especially Misbourne, are consistently pretty good. Chalfonts and Waddesdon are consistently great. Great Missenden has a fantastic primary too as does Little Kingshill and Little Chalfont.

Believe me, the grammar schools only take pupils who will do well in a grammar school but they do not want unfilled places because, obviously, that is less money for them in a time of real budget constraints. Bucks is a very low spending authority. Therefore any child who is a few points of the pass mark can often be offered a place on appeal, but at 25% plus of places being taken by out of County children, there is no real evidence to support that local children could have obtained these places. They just did not get close enough to, or above, the pass mark. If you look at Aylesbury Vale, there are 4 grammar schools and 6 secondary schools, plus a small free school. I will look at the admission numbers, but last year the initial pass rate in Aylesbury Vale was 16%. If the grammars did not take out of County children, they would be making drastic changes to the schools in terms of teaching staff, subjects offered etc. They NEED these children to keep the numbers up and the results comensurate with grammar school expectations. The 11 plus is now an exam chosen by the grammar schools, not the LA. It is what they want. They also want the brightest children and they do not care where they come from.

Sorry, just come back to this thread. Great Marlow is a fabulous upper, but you have to live close. Amersham School certainly better though of than it was. Beaconsfield School improved but a lot of people have been removing children, not sure why. Chalfont Community College well thought of, I believe. Some of the Wycombe Uppers are dire, so be careful there. Avoid Burnham Upper (has a new name) for now, but things could change so much in a few years. I think the Uppers are gaining from too many out of catchment children taking the tests with no intention of taking the places, meaning local children don't get places & go the Uppers.

I think you will find this same problem with a lot of schools in Bucks as well Tulip81

Lots of parents that live in Bucks hate the Grammar school system even those with children in Grammar schools. It's a lot of pressure for the children and the upper schools are seen as second best even if they are pretty decent schools. I would avoid moving to Buckinghamshire because of the system rather than choose to live there.

Lots of people seem to think that a Grammar school is the be all and end all but what is so great about them? A good comprehensive school will set it's pupils according to ability.

Education has become so politicised over recent years who knows whether the Grammar school system or the Comprehensive school system will even exist in 10 or 15 years time.

MK pupils get in because they pass the Bucks 11 plus. They are not let in on appeal. Then Sir Henry Floyd GS in Aylesbury has about 25% or more pupils from MK and has done for years . The Royal Latin in Buckingham likewise. It is not possible to stop children taking the test because they do not live in Bucks. Maidenhead children can go to Sir William Borlase's in Marlow and loads of children come from the Rickmansworth area to Dr Challoners schools. Waddesdon people commute from Aylesbury Vale Parkway, not Haddenham. I think the secondary schools did not like that name and a few people do choose them over a grammar school place. The secondary schools mostly have 6th forms, although some are poor, so they technically can cater for all abilities. However they are not comparable in many ways but many are good schools. Many have improved a great deal and are capable of sustaining this. Others struggle to maintain high quality leadership and have dips in standards , even in affluent areas! The main thing is to plan to be near a good secondary school. Waddesdon is C of E and has a minuscule catchment area. Church affilliation gets the children in from Haddenham, not catchment area!

I think the Bucks schools fill up on distance if you're not in catchment, not on score. ie 121 is still the pass mark and then they take people who live closest to fill any remaining places.

I know people from outside catchment get into Beaconsfield High and Burnham Grammar this way.

So I assume the same would be true of Milton Keynes......

Don't forget in Bucks if you fail the 11+ you can also sit the 12+ and 13+ if you really think your DC should be in a grammar. But it's a much better plan to do what you're doing, and move to an area where you like both types of schools.

If you live in an affluent part of Bucks, the non grammar schools are generally better than the comprehensives in most of London. ie they get more Level 5s on entry, and correspondingly get good GCSEs.

Compare Great Marlow School ( www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136964&superview=sec ) which isn't a grammar, to this comprehensive inside the M25: www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135004&superview=sec

Interesting Milly that you say that Bucks now regard the secondary schools as all ability. I know of a few schools that have said that with the new 11 plus test they have found that many of their most able students have been given very low scores in the test even though they are working at the correct levels for Grammar school, someone did say to me that they wondered if this was the LEA's way of pushing up results in the secondary schools. This now makes me wonder even more.

It would only be by exception that Milton Keynes pupils would go to grammar schools, and I think that they'd probably all have to appeal to get in ad they are out of catchment. On what grounds, I'm not sure. My sister is considering this for her DC in the near future. And Buckingham (for Royal Latin) is in the main, much easier and quicker to get to than Aylesbury (for the girls' High, the boys' Grammar and Sir Henry Floyd which is mixed). The other grammars would be much top far away from MK.

Re schools in MK, it's changing quite fast as mk is growing v quickly and schools are being open, and reading maturity etc quite quickly. Again, it would depend on what side of Mk that you live on. For travel to Buckingham you'd want to be on the west ish side I think.