DIY eleven plus prep - not sure how to tackle this

Zombie thread from 3 years ago!

Got to admit up here on the Wirral, almost everyone I know who wants to get into Grammar school got tutored.. It's the norm here. They start with a tutor in yr 4, most around Christmas time. Some start a little later in the year but they all start by Yr 5.

Obviously not all the ones who get tutored pass, but I personally don't know anyone who passed that didn't have a tutor. In fact several without tutors failed but went onto sit and achieve level 6 Maths and English (not reading).

Some that did have a tutor and passed didn't sit level 6 but were high 5s. So I do think it depends on the area you are in and the competitiveness of the Grammar school entrance.

Oh and don't forget children are in competition for places.

The kids competent in level 5 and 6 maths will get higher percentages and thus the places.

CEM maths is hard,most schools are switching over to it. You need to be competent and fast. Eg you need to be able to do long multiplication/ division of decimals fast in order to answer 20 short or long questions in 7 minutes. None of my DC had covered that by the Sep of year 6.

Some will be able to work out gaps and teach them.Some won't so they'll outsource.

Ha,ha to me being a tutor,I'd rather stick pins in my eyes.

You're not making sense,do tell what level is year 6 NC content?

Level 4 is the goal for the maj in year 6 sats. Many schools will do level 5 and 6 after the 11+(my DC certainly did)

And as for going by the say so of a 10 year old on the return of a test you haven't even seen, I think you'd quite rightly be laughed at by any appeals panel.

I think one of the biggest challenges parents face is rooting out some of the deliberate lies that are bandied about about the 11+. Kids don't need to be geniuses, they don't need to score 100% they don't need a paid-for tutor.

Is lilytucker a tutor trying to drum up business, I wonder? They're usually very keen on trying to pretend tutors have some 'mystical' knowledge that ordinary parents can't get just from reading the NC documents. It's all complete bobbins, of course. Any half-intelligent parent with the inclination and free time and access to the internet can tutor.

And nowhere did I state that 'everything needed will be done' at primary school - on the contrary, as children need to know all year 6 content by the very start of year 6, unless they are fortunate enough to go to a school that is a year ahead, they WILL need to ensure they have covered year 6 content.

What they will not need to have done is covered year 7 or year 8 content...

You don't need to 'get the papers back - if you child remembers a question that was unanswerable then it's straightforward to work out if the type of question is one covered in the NC or not.

What you're saying is simply false - show me an example of a state school (obviously, independent schools can ask what they like) whose entrance exam contains a single question that goes beyond KS2 - or admit you're deliberately spreading misinformation.

This kind of deliberate misinformation is dangerous - it panics parents and children unnecessarily and takes them away from what they should be focusing on, which is KS2 content.

It's quite enough to expect 10-year-olds to have covered all the year 6 content by Sept of Year 6 - no need to panic them they need to have covered year 7 or 8 content too!!

So chill, parents reading this. What lilytucker says is a LIE.

Not true.

Our states it's primarily levels 1-5 but that there are opportunities to go beyond that.

Primaries differ.Getting all to a level 4 will alway be a priority.The amount of leve 5 prep kids get let alone level 6 will vary hugely as will when it happens.The exam is in Sep of year 6.

Also you don't get the papers back so I'd love to know how you could go through a paper with a fine tooth comb to complain after.

Honestly you take a blind assumption that everything needed will be done at your peril. Levels have gone now anyway.This year's year 6 will be the first year taking it without them. This year and next year will be interesting as it will involve the cross over of curriculums.The new maths curriculum is a lot harder. If schools are testing on the new curriculum it will vary as to how well it's been covered as primaries get to grips with it.

"There is a lot of content in the maths paper that will not be cover at KS2, at least there was when my Dc did the 11+, 4 and 5 years ago. There was things like how mahy fluid ounces is a cup of tea, and what sizes are rucksacks sold in, etc."

This is NOT correct. The national curriculum for KS2 explicitly states children must be able to understand use approximate equivalences between metric and imperial units.

I repeat - there is nothing in the 11+ exam for any state school that is not covered in the National Curriculum for KS2 - because if there was, every child who had applied to that school and not passed the exam would have a valid grounds for appeal. They can ask tricksy questions that require children to think laterally - but only using the knowledge they should have gained from KS2.

So if you focus on covering the KS2 curriculum thoroughly, that will be quite sufficient.

I did past papers with ds2 (successfully), am doing the same with ds3. DS3 is actually academically brighter than ds2, but maybe less likely to pass the 11 plus because he blows hot and cold, and will get cross about grammatical errors in the questions and obsess about single words that annoy him.

First - check what the pass mark is (roughly) for your area. I came across a group of parents outside the school gates who were convinced that the pass mark was 85% ish for the grammar schools in our area. It's not, 65% ish will pretty much guarantee you a place at the moment (might need a bit more when the current infants are taking the exam as the birth rate has risen dramatically).

And then practice. It's pretty much all paid tutors do anyway. I find doing it myself I can get a better idea of problem areas.

Oh and thirdly - make sure you have alternative school you can be really positive about. I find other kids (parents?) and blinking teachers come out with all sorts of nonsense about the 11 plus and its importance. If you have a child like ds3 he needs a no-nonsence 'this is not the be all and end all and there are other excellent schools' approach to stop him getting his knickers in a twist. He wants to go to the grammar, I secretly prefer his second choice, so I don't struggle with this!

Our youngest DD has sat the CEM 11+ last September. Previously we were a GL area. DD1 sat the old test papers and from what I can see it seems to be a lot fairer under the new CEM test.

Under the old GL regime only about 5-7 DC out of 60 in our local state primary passed the test. (only a few were not entered) since the test was changed about half have passed. We home tutored ourselves. In terms of CEM I would say practice widely because nobody knows that is going to come up. We practiced about 20 minutes a day starting the Easter holidays of year 5..

Based of what we heard about the test in our area over the last 2 years our tactic was to learn to do basic maths questions and problem solving but work on speed rather than on really high ability questions. DD also sat the 11+ in a GL area (as a back up) and finished her maths paper with about 10 minutes spare including checking whilst in the CEM paper she only just finished in the time allowed and no time to check her work.

I agree that for some areas the 11+ exams forum is very supportive and helpful if you are stuck with something, however some boards are quiet.

CEM isn't covered by the end of year 5 and what is isn't in enough detail.To be successful at CEM they really need to be able to do long division,multiplication( decimals),decimals,percentages,algebra accurately and at very fast speed. My dd only started doing long division in the last few weeks before the end of term.Just not early enough. Everything my dd also was taught just didn't seem to be in advanced enough detail. All kinds of graphs,tables and charts

So much of CEM is maths and bloody fast. They could have say 20 questions in 9 minutes.Not always hard but you need to be bloody quick and have a good detailed understanding and experience of applying concepts at speed.

The better primary schools and indies who claim to teach a year ahead will give a huge advantage.Imvho tutoring is needed more now than before to have a fair chance. My DC have done both.

Children don't need to be 'taught' how to do VR & non VR questions ifthey are grammar school material.What they do need is practice (1) to get up to the required speed and (2) to get a feel for the right balance between giving a question the time to solve it, and moving on.

I was referring to Maths.

Some good answers here.
It is "find the gaps, fill the gaps"
The way I start is with a Bond book or similar just sit alongside them and go through the questions one by one or a few at a time.
Choose a book which is just slightly too hard to build confidence.
When they get something wrong or can't attempt a question analyze why and teach as necessary then try another similar question.
The Usbourne Maths Dictionaries are very useful.

They still do verbal and non verbal reasoning don't they? And the primary schools don't? is that right?

In Kent they changed then test last year so that nothing that wasn't covered by end Y5 was included.

I think most tests are the same these days.

There is a lot of content in the maths paper that will not be cover at KS2, at least there was when my Dc did the 11+, 4 and 5 years ago. There was things like how mahy fluid ounces is a cup of tea, and what sizes are rucksacks sold in, etc.

OP, I would start with non verbal reasoning, and then verbal reasoning, these are not covered at all in many state schools, and take practice to even understand the question.

If you are going through practices question and answers of these type of question regularly, this will improve their chances.

Go through lots of questions of the same question type, and when they are confident at that, start a different question type, but keep reminding them of the first question type, then when they are confident of the second question type, tackle a third. Then you can start giving them a mixture of types to test them, but still keep going through the question types one by one.

There are a lot of free resources on the internet for this, but make sure you know exactly what is in your local 11+. Don't waste a year on verbal reasoning if it isn't tested!

Hi Stressed

Just wondering about your post where you mentioned that maths content for state grammar 11 plus must not go beyond ks2. Please advise how do you know this and is there a url web link to any official guidance on this. Does it also relate to cem tests

Stresssed has given detailed ways. I just add some, first I think the current stage should be finding the gap and fill the gap. So there is no need to do the practiced paper yet. And the speed comes from practice, I think you shouldn't worry about it yet.

I guess you son has just finished Y4, it would be better to buy practice book for age 10-11 first, I used Bond myself and think it is good. And it maybe better to keep it around 30 minutes per session first. Once he do it, you check and then discuss the mistake. This will help to find and cover the knowledge gap. After he finish age 11+ practise book and nearly can get most correct, then start do the practice paper. And also start to find sample papers to do after he can do the bond paper easily. As I feel the sample paper from grammar school and independant school are slightly harder than Bond paper.

As for DS2, you can buy 7-8 practice workbook for him fist.I actually find Bond non sense serial is good for teaching the knowledge gap. Bond have online material you can print. It's a good idea they do it together. I found my DS2 likes to copy DS1 as well.

Same ideas apply with VR and non-VR. You can buy books that explain how to approach particular types of questions and again, focus on any types your ds finds hard.

English - plenty of books you can buy that claim to help with learning comprehension skills and vocabulary. None of those will beat wide reading (for pleasure) though. Get him to go to bed half an hour earlier and read every night!!

Tutors are not necessary and an incompetent one will be a liability as parents imagine their kids are prepared when they aren't. If you must use a tutor, ask them about how they plan to prepare your child for the test and what the test format is. If they don't know the latter immediately without checking or tell you they plan to give your child weekly tests rather than actually teach them anyrhing, say no thank you and walk away.

Personally, I think tutors are a complete waste of money if you're a reasonably intelligent adult and can spare about 2-3 hours per week and enjoy spending time with your own child.

I tutored my dd for about 5 months and got her from a score of 60% in her first full-length practice test to a score of over 90% in about 3 months - so you can do it easily in a year.

And my dd was nearly a year older when she started, in May of Year 5 (exams done then in Nov of year 6). So if your 9-year-old is already getting 50% before the start of year 5, he's in with a good chance.

How to DIY tutor maths for 11+:

1. Identify what exams he's actually going to be doing. Is it just maths? Or also VR or English? Which exam boards? Multiple choice or standard (ie writing the answers) format? How long and how many questions? The 11+ forum will tell you all this. No point preparing him for the wrong exam or type of exam. All 11+ maths exams for state schools must limit questions to the content of the KS2 maths syllabus and cannot go beyond it, so any book or website on KS2 maths will be able to tell you what the full list of possible topics are. Remember - these are only aimed at 10-year-olds so are not actually terribly difficult for any normally numerate adult. Plenty of textbooks will explain the topics for you, so don't panic if the last time you studied maths was at school!

1. Take the maths paper he did and go through it. The score tells you nothing useful. Discussing the answers will. For every question he got wrong, ask him why he got it wrong. Was it:

a. because he hasn't learnt the topic yet at school? - if so, add it to your list of topics to cover (though bear in mind he'll probably be covering most of them this year at school anyway).

b. because he didn't read the question properly - ie right answer to wrong question. Teach exam technique and focus on learning to read the question properly and identify key information.

c. because he ran out of time? Not a problem at this stage, but get him to swap pens at the end of the 'official' time, so you can see how much he finished in the correct time, and aim to gradually increase the number of questions finished in the timeslot over the year.

d. because he made careless errors? This was my dd's bugbear. I ended up bribing her (successfully) to reduce the number of careless errors to no more than 2 per paper. I was shocked by how much her school let her get away with, in terms of messy layout and lack of attention to detail. The main quality of those who succeed at the 11+ is not brilliance but accuracy.

e. because it's just too hard? - even though they know the topic, had enough time, read the question correctly and made no careless errors? That's actually fine. You'd expect there to be at least 2 or 3 really tough questions per paper, to stretch and identify the most able mathematicians. He doesn't even NEED to get those right - he can get over 90% in the real exam WITHOUT being able to handle those. So your ds shouldn't be put off by those or imagine that all errors fall into this category - they are almost certainly due to factors a. to d. instead. You need to teach him not to stress over these types of questions (let alone for 15 minutes) but to leave them to the end and come back to them if time = basic exam technique.

You should then end up with a list of topics to cover, plus some figures for numbers of careless errors and not-reading-the-questions. That will give you a very clear idea of what topics/skills you need to focus on.

Aim to have covered all the new subject content several months early, so it can sink in. If you have 10 topics and 10 months, say, you can have a very relaxing time of covering one a month. Make sure you start with the basic core maths skills, though - focus on accuracy and speed of basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division (including fractions and decimals) before you move on to anything else, as those skills will underlie all the other topics. Good mental maths and times tables are essential - you can strengthen these in fun ways like adding up scores on board games or playing card games etc.

Do occasional practice papers so he gets used to them but not loads and certainly not more than 1 a week (arguably none till he's covered the syllabus). Bond do lots of books of them in different formats. As you get nearer the exam, you can start to do more practice papers in the actual style of the one he'll do in the test.

No need to do more than 1 a week - remember, he won't learn anything from doing the test as such, but from going over the answers and understanding how/why he got it wrong, which takes time.

Your 7-year-old shouldn't be doing any of this!! He should be reading as much as possible, learning his times tables and mental maths and playing fun games that improve maths and vocabulary - Boggle, cards, board games etc.

There are starter 11+ books for younger ages, that introduce younger kids to the concepts, in short 10-minute bursts. Maybe he can have a go at one of these books when he feels like it, but that's more than enough. No need at all for him to be doing full, 'proper' 11+ tests at this age, and the results cannot be meaningful in any way, so don't even attempt to analyse them! Let him have fun and enjoy maths and reading instead!