German expat questions value for money of top English private schools

Yes.

WhattodowithMum - as a matter of interest, are you concerned about your reaction to the other parents, the effect those parents' attitudes will have on their children and the effect their children with have on your children?

GladtoBeDone, we went and looked at loads of private schools, both more traditional suburban ones and "name schools." My general impression was that the teachers generally were more interested, "in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake," while the prospective parents tended to be, "obsessive about grades," and "amazing university destinations."

For me, I hope the latter is a happy consequence of the former. DD is leaving a state primary for a "name school." We'll just have to see how it all pans out. I feel very comfortable with the teaching staff and intimidated to bits by the other parents. Frankly, they just blow me away.

Yes, exactly Bonsoir.

Needmoresleep: "The nice thing about the private sector is that schools are different and people have a choice. So you can choose schools which deliver great grades and list amazing University destinations, or you can choose ones which are less selective, provide a wider mix and more grounding."

In your view, which London private schools best exemplify the latter? Are there schools that are highly academic but not obsessive about grades and value the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake?

needmore you are not remotely miserable, if your posts are anything to go on .

TBF to H. Holle, the German system is very prescriptive. Education is driven consistently and inflexibly by the state (for example, home ed is illegal).

The free flowing nature of the independent sector in the UK may have been a bit of a shock.

That said, it would become achingly obvious what was on offer at The Hall after two or three years. If he didn't like it, he wasn't forced to suffer it for another decade.

In my little corner of London/SE, the problem is that state secondaries have not kept up with their change in clientele. A lot of tricky parents with high aspirations for their children are now in the state system because they cannot afford not to be. I am not sure this has actually driven up standards but the frustration is palpable. The educators are stressed. A bit more streaming and setting would take some of the heat out, but there are countervailing pressures from other groups who do not want to create academic hierarchies within schools and therefore find letting the most able/prepared/supported get ahead anathema.

"Moderate" or "miserable"? (I AM qualified...poor DD is the only member of the family who has not or does not plan to study economics. She complains she has had a childhood of miserable dinner time conversations.)

Linking this to H. Holle, whilst on the educaiton journey I came across a few proper second or third generation Notting-Hillbillies. A different tribe, though one I liked. I suspect several of the mums had gone to SPGS, but they were not the types to broadcast things like that. Their children did not, and indeed probably did not try. I don't feel at ease with the super-striving, grades are all important, success is measured in monetary terms, aspects of London culture, and see successful education as something much broader, equipping young people to cope with and enjoy life, however it pans out. Go to University because it broadens your horizons, do different things, travel etc because it does the same. Work hard, be honest, find a career that matches your personality and skill set. I assume I am not alone.

The nice thing about the private sector is that schools are different and people have a choice. So you can choose schools which deliver great grades and list amazing University destinations, or you can choose ones which are less selective, provide a wider mix and more grounding.

Poor H. Holle seems to have picked up his fellow non-dom banker views on the "best schools" (and Sevenoaks is popular with London based Europeans, whilst the Hall has a reputation for being both very affluent and quite a hot house) but failed to understand that people sharing his concern about diversity often make different choices.

bonsoir fortunately, I've no interest in currying favour.

I'm simply stating my view, which is not remotely controversial and in line with many an economist, moderate or otherwise (and in line with your good self on a different day/when a different mood strikes).

If I'm wrong, then no harm done.

east I thought numbers of privately schooled pupils rose quite sharply in 2014?

But over the last 20 years schools have closed, St David's closed in 2009, didn't Putney Park close about 4 years ago? A few schools (Kew House, Harrodian, Kew Green, Hampton Court House spring to mind) may have opened in West London but they & the area, are not typical of the UK private school market.

bonsoir I'm not lecturing on economics, though why you assume I'd be worse placed than you or granola I'm not sure.

I've also seen threads where you've argued very strongly in line with what I'm saying .

And I'm not smug about what has happened/is happening to the middle classes. I'm ambivalent.

I accept that it's not pleasant and that those affected will try to fight it. Self preservation is a natural human instinct. But let's not dress it up as some moral issue.

needsmore indeed.

And many existing schools have increased their numbers considerably.

granola it is not who is responsible, it is what.

The world has changed immeasurably and will continue to do so. Periods of economic stability are rare, and those who have a mindset expecting it are fools (and ought to read more history).

The world order constantly re-shapes. And whilst its obviously tough to swallow when its your little part that's moving along, it's a bit much to cry foul play, when you neither cared nor noticed when it was some other poor sod's turn.

bonsoir the middle class did indeed hugely expand, but in recent times its contraction is its most notable feature. Many jobs which the middle class have traditionally held are being/have been rendered obsolete by technology, and what's left is facing stiff global competition.

Thrift, which might be considered the most MC of traits is now almost pointless.

Education, a MC prize, is now offered to all and taken up by the majority, thus devaluing its currency.

So whilst there are more people than ever that identify as MC, the numbers that can access the same standard of living as the previous generation is tiny.

Eastpoint, this is not the case in West London, where a number of preps have opened in recent years, and several new secondaries have opened or are due to open.

Demand is there as competition for places in existing schools is sky high.

University professors probably don't make as much money as electricians nowadays, the only lecturer I know who sends his children to a fee paying school has a partner who makes multiples of his income annually.

Lots of private schools have closed over the last 20 years as state schools have improved and housing costs have risen.

It varies from school to school. Each school has an effective physical catchment, and in London what has happened is people living within that catchment has changed. So girls growing up in a house off Sloane Square may still go to Francis Holland, however they might be Saudi/Americal/French/Russian/Japanese rather than affluent English middle class. That English family might instead send their girls to Surbiton High or Danes Hill or wherever they live now.

(An expat friend told me not to worry about some of the affluence. The house was often rented, the car leased, and fees paid by the firm as part of the package. It was a mirage. If the job went, and City jobs do, the lifestyle disappeared. And indeed another, seemingly very affluent family, said they were opting for Putney High rather than SPGS because though they could afford the fees for the latter on income, if that income went, it would be easier to fund the remaining years of the latter through savings.)

I have observed (in MN research fashion where anecdote rules) quite a high number of only children, and quite a number of older parents. But this may reflect Central London demographics. One child, two established careers and a largely paid off mortgage makes it easier to pay fees. I have also met a number of academics at parent events.

MCS Oxford and KCS Wimbledon educated generation after generation of the children of university lecturers. No longer. I know professors at both universities who can't afford their fees.

It's not a coincidence that Andrew Halls (""Tatler" is important") has been head of both schools.

Everyone is entitled to their views on these changes but there's no point denying they have happened or who's responsible.

And at that time Bonsoir going to university and having the funds made you a tiny minority.

And even today, outside the few schools that seem to attract endless consternation, there are private schools with a parent body as you describe.

It's really very simple though. If people want real diversity (as opposed to some faux middle class mash-up, that still excludes most people) then send your DC to state schools.

But frankly, the concentration upon private schools is diversionary, no? The issue at hand is not the squeezing of the middle classes, but the shrinking of the middle classes. Many people who identify as MC are actually no better off than their WC counterparts in financial terms. Yet they still believe they are entitled to the things they can no longer afford and get Very Cross that they can't.

But were they Very Cross when technology and global competition swept away the livelihoods of many of those below them? Not so much...

I think there was a big change in the 1990s, until then our newsagent (who had moved to the UK from Uganda) could send his daughters to private school. My friends who are accountants both work to send their children to private school & live in West London whereas when we were children only the father (typically) would have worked. In my youngest child's last year's at junior school only two families didn't have both parents working, with my oldest child the majority of mothers did not work.