Right. Tell me what to do here- key words- 11+, g&t, University, widening access......

A faith school is a faith school. It has a specific selection criteria. It's therefore not a comprehensive. It is not open to all.

If they are not Grammar schools or Modern schools, they must be Comprehensive schools!.

This of course cannot be correct, because Kent does not have Comprehensives outside a small strip south of Tunbridge Wells !.

I know of Hillview because my elder sister considered it for her youngest DD, but choose Weald of Kent instead. DN though quite possibly could go to Hillview for 6th Form because of the Visual Arts 'specialism'.

I don't know St George's Gravesend , but just looking at Wikipedia it has been a school since 1580 ! so it must be the oldest "modern" school in the world ?.....

Yup St George's Garvesend has a very strict admissions oversubscription criteria and other than looked after children, it's all about church attendance and Christianity. Hardly non selective!

I've not heard of anyone in Kent passing and not getting a grammar place. But it's a BIG county, and some children are offered schools a very long way away, impossible by public transport. Not their closest grammars, as they are full, but ones maybe 15 -20 miles away.

I think those schools are exceptions sunshield, to be fair.

Hillview is girls only, and in an affluent area.

Gravesend is hardly deprived. And the school you have chosen is a church school.

Bertrand. Hillview Tonbridge 28% high 62% GCSE High ability grade average B.

However, look at St Georges Gravesend 18%FSM 17% High ability students yet achieves 67% *** GCSE with an average high ability student getting B.

This proves it is possible to achieve high standards , despite being in a deprived area that operates a selective education system !.

Just to add that obviously in Bucks, high attainer definitely does not guarantee a grammar school place. Although I have always thought that higher attainers who have less proactive parents with less money could get a place if they had been coached. Some children in the more deprived "pockets" in Bucks do not get a level playing field and it has always been unfair. Some primary schools have plenty of high attainers but only get one or two into a grammar school every year. More needs to be done to help those children. As some middle attainers get grammar school places, presumably it's the coaching that makes the difference.

At least Bucks is a shire county with a selective system so about the only comparison that can be made! These are a rare breed. It is clear there are differences between Kent and Bucks which affects the distribution of high achievers. I thought maybe more high achievers got into the Kent Grammar schools via the test leaving the 'high" schools short of high attainers. I tend to think the high achievers is a wide group and, as I said earlier, it is possibly the lower end of the high attainers in the secondary schools although no 11 plus system accurately chooses the "right" children every year.

So how many Kent Secondary schools have 7% high attainers? Can't be that many!

Is that true though? I'm sure there is at least one person here whose child passed the 11+ but didn't get a place because of distance/paucity of grammars in striking distance of her village.

Actually almost a third (29%) of grammar school places allocated by Bucks CC went to out of county children this year.

Bucks probably isn't a good choice of county to compare with Kent; it's very small geographically and easily accessible whereas Kent has some fairly remote towns with grammar schools (smaller population and those who pass the test get a place which accounts for fewer 'high attainers' at the modern?) Bucks only has a KS4 cohort of 5,670 whereas Kent's is 16,320. Bucks fsm rate is 6.5% (14% in the last 6 years) but Kent's is higher at 12.1% (23% in the last 6 years.)

If you look at Hampshire (which is fully comprehensive) there are only 4 state schools in the entire county where 'high attainers' get average GCSE grades of A (A-). Now this could mean that comprehensive schools are generally not good for 'high attainers' or the term 'high attainer' means nothing more than 'above average' and we need to make more distinction within the Level 5 band.

I'm pretty sure the op's ds doesn't go to the C- school by the way.

Years ago, before court judgements, Bucks could keep the grammar schools for Bucks children. This is no longer the case and the rush to Bucks has declined! My area had hardly anyone who went private if they did not pass. One girl in my primary year group. No-one else had the money in the far North!!!! The nearest secondary modern had to suffice for the rest, and it definitely was not "leafy". CSEs only there!

I do hail from the leafiest bit of the south! Sadly (or perhaps not sadly) I could never afford to move back to where I grew up, let alone to my parent's old house. Serious hedge fund income required for that now.

Even when I went to school there were people who moved there specifically for the grammar schools. One family moved into a house directly opposite favoured school and mother told my dm how handy it was going to be. The dd did not pass. Five minutes later many posters started appearing in their windows about banning 12+ (as it was then) and the dh became a pillar of the Liberal Party which locally was anti-grammar school. In my area those who didn't pass either went private or went to a "leafy" secondary modern a stop or two on train line. The nearest secondary modern was not for locals!

The average 4 bed estate type house in Aylesbury and North Bucks is less than that Brenda. There is a big difference between North, middle and the "leafy" South! I am not sure thousands flock to Bucks now because more and more children are living outside Bucks and gaining grammar school places without needing to move into the county. For example lots of children access the Aylesbury and Buckingham grammar schools who live in Milton Keynes which is a different LA. I think lots of grammar schools do have a higher proportion of non-white British children because academically they do well and it is poor British whites who do less well. Hence the lack of social mobility amongst this group.

I was interested in the fact that the Kent secondary modern has so few higher attainers in comparison to the Bucks schools though - given that they are both slective counties. Plenty of Bucks schools have 22-32% higher attainers - even ones I did not think would have!

Given that thousands flock to Bucks for the grammar schools, it figures that the secondary schools (non grammar) must be populated by some - if not bright - kids, then certainly ones with invested parents. A former council house where I used to live is for sale at £560K, so you can imagine the price of the average 4-bed. Not everyone can pass the 11+ so there are going to be presumably "better" dcs in the non-grammars.

I also saw that in my old grammar school the make up is now nearly 25% non-white British when the area profile is less than 10%. This indicates that either this demographic do particularly well at 11+ or are coming from outside area. Bit of both, I expect.

Sorry sunshield. Got the DS and the DD muddled up!

I think, LaVulcan that very few in Bucks turn down a grammar school place. It is unusual and most parents see the grammar schools as the Holy Grail. Bucks grammar schools are now taking far more out of county children so the numbers of high achieving children in the secondary schools is significantly higher than 10 years ago. I think very few people would choose the secondary school in Kent over a grammar school. I read, and I forget where, that every 8 points below 1000 leads to one grade lost in one GCSE. So a rough calculation means the children in the Kent school are achieving 8 GCSEs at a lower grade than they would have done in a school with a value added of 1000. It's just really sad and the governors and SLT of the Kent school do need to do more improve the outcomes for their pupils. A trip to a university is playing the fiddle while Rome burns really.

sunshield how many would chose to turn down a GS place for an Upper school which only had 7% of high achievers though? I suspect that would be a much more difficult decision than sending a child to an upper school with enough high achievers to have decent sized top sets (who could be expected to aim for A* - B).

DS year 7 goes to the Upper school my two DDs year 9 and 8 go to the girls grammar nearby !. Just to let you Know....

I do actually think that the higher attainers at a secondary school may well be the lower end of the high attainers, if you see what I mean. I suspect the OP would disagree with this and I do know of children who have 6+ A* GCSE grades at the secondary schools and get to top universities. I am also aware that the style of teaching at the secondary schools can be beneficial to some and in Bucks there is not such a huge gap between the grammars and the secondary schools, except in a few notable cases. I would be pretty confident your DD will do well at the Bucks secondary you have chosen, sunshield. However I have been aware that sport, music and drama can be pretty average in a few secondary schools and recruitment of good teachers is a permanent headache.

However where a school, as with the one in Kent, has an abysmally low value added, attaining the higher grades is more of an uphill struggle for the high attainers, as indeed it is for everyone else, because the "value" the children had on starting is actually being reduced. With only 7% high attainers there is a very small cohort of similar children and if C- is the averge grade that does not compare well with any Bucks secondary. The figures for the Kent school rather suggest there are big problems, unlike the current situation in most Bucks secondary schools. Very many of the Bucks secondary schools have over 20% higher attainers and what is achieved with them in most schools is good. As a county, Bucks is very high achieving and is the highest achieving Shire county. Kent is some way below the standard overall in Bucks.