Is it too early to start a 2016 girls 11+ W/SW London thread?

Best of luck mummyinatizz. We're waiting for WHS and Putney this week too. The waiting is horrible!

Results week for us this week - Putney High, WHS, plus Streatham & Clapham on Friday. Feeling nervous although the odds at PHS and WHS are against us, probably SCHS too!

Squirm: No problem, thanks.

Yes, I am sure some prep heads apply dark magic to boost your DC's chances on a waiting list and perhaps even mysteriously drum up back-up opportunities out of thin air for unsuccessful pupils - including by using secondary head relationships, where they have them.

This is where state primary parents like me get zero help - we have to fight our own battles without the same relationships and knowledge. And for us the registrars (rather than heads) will normally be the contact points. (BTW, I don't think some schools being in a consortium hinder people from also trying their luck with non-consortium schools, though.)

Ha, you are right about taking rankings with a pinch of salt or even a truckload of salt in the case of QE with its fancy footwork of splitting the school in two parts and also getting many of their international pupils to take exams in their mother tongues

No, I am not sure which source is best - Financial Times was great but I think they stopped it a few years ago. Yes, just add the schools you are interested in that have refused / been omitted; a quick check on their website. The point is that it is a very long list, and there can be "good fit" schools in the middle of it, especially for average ability pupils, even if a rank of one or two hundred and something might seem a bit scary. ("Top 100" lists omit most of the schools; many real back-ups may be placed 100+).

Given the increase in the number of schools applied for per DC, have schools adjusted by increasing the number of offers because their "yield" is likely to be lower than in the past?

By the way, why isn't the Common Entrance exam more popular at 11+? Such a test could help 1) reduce the number of exams a DC has to sit and 2) parents better assess their DC's prospects of being admitted to different schools.

Sorry, when it said 'and "forgot" to apply for a (real/safe) back-up' I thought it meant 'had only applied for one school'.

And I was under the impression that heads did the horse trading with their near misses anyhow, and introducing limits (by grouping schools) would only make it harder, wouldn't it? (I was assuming that the current levels of this activity would continue, whether or not extra layers are introduced. Happy to be corrected on that too).

Is The Telegraph Guide these days better respected than it was when it didn't include schools like St Paul's, but did have Queen E in the top 20? I thought that was quite recent, but it's probably me misremembering when.

Squirm: You are being unnecessarily difficult with your "Parents who apply to one school only must be vanishingly rare." Obviously the hypothetical DC with zero offers may also have been rejected from SPGS, NLCS, LU and other non-consortium schools in this scenario - the point is that if (and yes, it is a big if!) you find a registrar willing to be flexible, then the City score might be "trusted currency" for other schools that are in the same consortium group as City.

No sane registrar will broadcast such flexibility (it would upset their waiting list!) if indeed any exists, but unlike state schools I believe they pretty much can do what they want. My guess is that the chances are higher the lower down the school is in the league tables (see Telegraph online with ca 400 independents listed) and the more they have overestimated their likely acceptance rate that particular year. At least one flexible school has been named on MN in the past but I will not repeat this name as it is a couple of years ago and therefore quite likely to be unreliable.

It would be optional to try this, and I am certainly not promising that it would work.

Parents who apply to one school only must be vanishingly rare. And trying to winkle places out of the system right up to the September happens anyhow.

I didn't know there were any schools in London that took late applications actually during the active part of the admissions round.

But you seem to know some that do, and also know schools which are not as over-subscribed as they seem. Presumably they could function as a banker. Too pointed perhaps to name them now, and too late for this year's round but you'll be able to do an enormous service to parents going through this for Sept 17 by pointing the in the direction of those schools. (please)

Squirm: For the most popular schools I agree it is unlikely. But I don't think all schools are as popular as they seem - and many want to climb the league tables. If someone missed out on a top school (say City) by a whisker (say had 84 points vs offer cut-off of 86 - made-up numbers) and "forgot" to apply for a (real/safe) back-up, then the registrar at a less popular/academic school in the same consortium group where the offer cut-off was 64 (or 54) might just bite and see the DC as a great catch that helps up the quality of the intake. Speculation on my part, but might work once in a while - there is a lot of time between mid Feb and September for extended offers to be rejected and a spot to be freed up. If my DC had zero offers I would grasp for this straw, and hope to be added to the (top of the) waiting list.

One thing is certain: Offer cut-offs are much lower at some schools than at others. And most schools are keen to admit clever kids.

I have a DC who is on the waiting list for Radnor House School in Twickenham and is exactly the kind of child who requires the smaller setting and more personalised approach that this school claims is its USP, setting it apart from the larger better-known schools in the area ( Hampton, KGS etc). I also personally know 5 DC with confirmed offers at Radnor who have no intention whatsoever of taking them up - they've all had their "general" interviews at KGS (which invariably lead to offers) and some hoping for schools like LU or LEH. They are very clear that Radnor was their fourth or fifth choice school. I suspect this kind of thing is happening across London - smaller schools that set out to fill in the gap in the market in providing places for the more academically average child end up missing out on their target market. The academically average child in South-west London seems to be increasingly being squeezed out of the private school system. Yes we may get offered a place in March when the waiting list moves, but if anything else comes up before then we will have to grab it.

Not surprised the Hall is undersubscribed given it's general reputation - it also only goes up til 16

Interestingly The Hall school, which is one of the few (only) non selective schools around in SW London, is barely over subscribed at all, indeed the head said on the open day that they barely turn anyone away. So anyone wanting a true banker - apply there!

Genuine question: why would any school accept a late registration when it already has far more applicants than places, especially as schools aren't needing to use their waiting lists much?

Also, are there really schools that are not happy with the calibre of their intake based on their on-time applicants?

I agree on the consortium although it does mean you have to be on form on that day and a lot rests on 1 exam. And yes individual schools then add things like the VR at St James, francis holland is a a morning... So all adds up. Trouble is that there are not really any bankers now... Kew house is as oversubscribed as many now so there will still be lots of disappointed children on the day of results and much more waiting on wait lists...which is what I expect for my DD.

I agree that the Consortium approach is the way to go - the only downside is that many of the individual schools ask you to do their own assessment morning /day alongside this. For instance, at St James Girls, they spend the most part of a day before the Consortuium Group 2 exam at the school doing VR tests and "fun" activities. Some girls find all this just as stressful and tiring as the exam!

MissGintyMarlow -I'm only saying that purely from an A level /uni point of view in my experience there is not much difference in achievement between MC children of similar intelligence and (just as important) family background who attend state and private schools. The fame and success of a few super selective private schools like Westminster/SPGS/Eton etc tends to mask the fact that IMO most private schools produce little added value for their increasingly vast fees.

However, I agree that the state sector has some way to go to match the sort of intellectual stretching of pupils which as you say takes place in the best private schools. I personally think that there is an issue here with mixed ability teaching in comps and would not be happy for my DD to be in a mixed ability class.

makes total sense NWgirls!

I am a fan of the consortium approach as used by North London independent girls schools, and would welcome this being extended to (or copied by) coed, boys and/or South London schools:

• fewer test days ie less stress and absences
• easier to familiarise DC if fewer formats
• looking at the consortium members can help especially newbie parents like I was discover other schools that may be relevant and frankly perhaps a better fit for their DC than the prestgious/famous extremely selective ones that are easy to spot/want but very hard to get into
• DC who get no offers by mid Feb but who sat the relevant consortium test can perhaps try an urgent late application to other consortium schools on the back of trusted test scores (hopefully above the required cutoff) eg a reject from eg City or G&L might find a belated fit with a lovely school lower down the academic/"brand" pecking order.

Many schools not part of a consortium (coed, perhaps boys, S London) seem to use NVR and/or VR, and this could perhaps be included in the test format, whether it is a new "Group 3" or a separate new consortium. Or the schools that want to look for something that is not included in the common test format can include such questions in the interview, if they wish.

This way sitting for 5+ schools could be a lot less stressful. There are a lot of good schools within a reasonable commute in London, and it is sometimes really difficult to know upfront how realistic it is for your particular DC to get in (and also how well you/DC like the school!), perhaps especially coming from a state school - we got zero advice from our primary, but some impetus when one teacher begged us to not send DD to the local comp...

Yes, three years ago our DCs prep head said only apply to 3 schools, and there was a very clear pecking order in everyone's minds of stretch and banker. We asked the prep about doing a 4th and were told not to, and I think others were similarly dissuaded. But last year - so two years later -when DD was doing it the prep school's form had space for 4 choices and we were encouraged to apply to 4. I know some people did 6, and presumably the head co operated with a reference for all 6. What I think was also happening was that people were applying in a more scattergun approach and a lot across the same "range" of schools. It was almost like deferring the decision making until you got to the point of offers rather than at the point of application. That I think is one of the big changes.

As a corollary, the "new normal" seems to have more use of waiting lists, as there is a gentle settling down of people and places: since people have applied to 4 or 5 of the "same" schools, then often one child will get 4 or 5 offers but only when the unwanted ones are released can the real situation be seen.

i mean, really, the head of WHS acknowledging the stress girls are under, great, but her only solution is "don't apply to too many, just 3"

what tosh. has put me right off WHS. What would her response to stress in girls at her school be?

Agree with TedTess and Alwaysfrank. Nice sentiment but no real solution. 3 years ago KGS was the safety school. Then it was Ibstock, er, not any more. Which school is it now? Probably not even Emmanuel or Radnor or the one by the M4 slip road or Harrodian as they are way over subscribed. So do new schools have to keep springing up every couple of years?

And yes totally agree of course nvr and vr can be tutored for. They are probably the easiest thing to (over) prepare for.

I don't disagree with the article's sentiments, but I wholeheartedly agree with Teddtess that 3 schools would be fine if the goalposts stayed the same, Last year, KGS would have been our "banker" choice but both dc's were rejected without interview (as were a good few others we knew who thought it was their banker too). Surbiton was the back up choice for DD many years ago but increasingly they seem to turn away a lot of girls.

And I have to say that if the interviews are there mainly to spot behavioural issues then none of the private schools I have known pupils in have cracked how to do that. I haven't discerned any difference in the success in the selection tests at 11 for those girls who had behavioural problems. They appear in every school. Their success by 18 is another matter.....

Teddtess it is expensive to make reasoning tests unpredictable, and with 1000s sitting them The Tiffins simply could not afford it. The tutors could therefore tutor the types of questions that come up, with stories of them waiting at the gates for feedback each year so they could tailor the next years prep. It was a complete racket with absolutely no educational value. It was and is also a first past the post system so all that mattered was the score, it had to be transparent and objective to meet the legal requirements, they could not make a subjective judgement based on other "soft" evidence such as interviews and references. Though the new exams, English at least, must have introduced room for subjectivity.

One of the measures of the effectiveness of the tests used by businesses and private schools is that individuals can't improve the score beyond doing a few tests (not more than 10) for familiarisation with the general format etc. But that is expensive as the Ed and Occupational Psychologists keep developing new questions that test the same things in different ways. I have heard stories of those pupils extensively prepped for Tiffin being thrown by the reasoning papers they sat at WHS and KGS. And some of the reasoning questions eg on the LEH General paper are really there as part of the process of gathering all the evidence they can about a candidate. In the more selective schools some of the harder maths questions are in fact more tests of reasoning, having to apply their knowledge in an unfamiliar way.

I was told at LEH for instance that "the interviews can tell us such a lot about a candidate" , all part of building up a picture, in what is not a first past the post system but a way of using all the evidence to determine whether the candidate will fit with the school. Inevitably that is subjective to some extent. I assume that with upwards of 1000 applicants the coeds are not going to have the luxury of such a labour intensive process, the rumour last year was that the new KGS head had moved their process nearer to the first past the post system he was familiar with in his state grammar Headship. The process is not transparent though and that is part of the source of parental neurosis, a process they can't know or control......

I'm sorry you and your dh's teachers were so unimpressive neurotic, but that absolutely wasn't my experience. Equally, you can be sceptical about added-value but again, having been able to compare the two systems, one of my private schools in particular was in a different league to the comp.it wasn't about offering activities so much as the level to which we were stretched and encouraged to think laterally and broaden our intellectual horizons. I said I am pretty would have achieved the same grades in either system, but the private system offered a far more rewarding all-round experience.

That is my personal observation and if private schools have since declined so much (and the state system improved) to the point that they're a waste of money I would be delighted.

Well I think that article from the head of WHS is spot on.
We maybe naively only applied to 2 schools, and my daughter got into the one she really wants to go to.
She's no genius and we didn't tutor her at all. But maybe the fact that when asked by both schools which others she had applied for, and they heard it was only two schools in total, accounted for something. After all, that meant that if they offered her a place there was a 50% chance she'd accept, versus a 20% chance if she'd applied for 5.----