Is it too early to start a 2016 girls 11+ W/SW London thread?

Crazy

It's never good to get a rejection letter, but please remember that LU is really in a league of its own when it comes to numbers of applicants. It's a numbers game -1200 for 120 places! And only half of those are for girls. Other schools, even other super-selectives like G&L have far less applicants and all the places are for girls. As you describe your dd as a happy, fairly academic girl, she has probably dodged a bullet to be honest. Good luck!

Orca321 thank you for your encouraging words. Perhaps as you say when we all know the outcomes it will feel easier. However I have been left feeling throughout this whole process that there are now v v few if any schools in our vicinity in west London which are non selective and the whole system does seem geared to the very very able child who can deliver on the day. I have a laid back and very non competitive lovely middle of the road, creative girl and it really has not felt like any of the consortium schools for example are geared up for those children who are not in the top percentiles but who will still probably by A'levels do pretty well... I know that skme of our choices were aspirational and my dD was aware of that hence being fine with the Latymer no but I am worried that any of them
Will take her! I'll stop now as as starting to note myself let alone everyone else on this!!!

I'm sorry Almostdone, my post was not intended to sound smug.

I'm well aware that the system does sometimes let people down, and even those who get the results they hope for find the process stressful, and the disappointments can be very real and painful. I HATED it while we were going through it and had to fight quite hard to prevent my daughter perceiving how much I felt was riding on the outcome, because I thought the most important thing was that she not feel too much pressure.

Obviously, that approach worked for us, but point of my post was that it IS possible to choose NOT to join the arms race, e.g. through intensive tutoring, and I wanted to give support to people not wanting to go that route and needing reassurance that tutoring isn't as universal as some might think. But this is probably advice for next year's 11+, as everyone on this thread is already at the waiting for results stage. My sincerest sympathies to those who don't get the offers they hope for, but I really do hope any disappointment will be temporary, and you will in the end all get places where your DCs will be happy!

Orca123 you have been fortunate. You must know others where things didn't really work out well. I think we all do and that adds to the pressure of this process!

With reference to families that chose not to tutor: last year our daughter sat for four schools often mentioned on these threads and got four offers. She went to a middle-range prep and was in the top third of the class, but by no means a prodigy. We did not tutor, but just did some practice papers over the xmas holidays so she would be familiar with the types of questions she would encounter on the exams, and had some practice answering questions under a time limit. We also had a family friend conduct a practice interview with her. That's it.

If you are coming from a state primary and hoping to move to a selective independent, then some tutoring might be necessary to bridge a gap, but otherwise, I would think very carefully about whether the extra time spent with a tutor (as opposed to playing, doing sport, resting), the money spent, and the extra pressure and stress are worth it, especially as a child who only gets a place at a certain school after lots of tutoring might have to continue the tutoring in secondary just to keep up.

Of course the system isn't perfect, but on the whole I think it works out most of the time, and I believe the schools are constantly honing their selection processes to make them as fair and correct as possible. After all, it's not in their interest to admit pupils who will not thrive there.

From my daughter's prep, a few were initially disappointed with the offers they received, but a year on, all are happy where they ended up. My advice would be: think very carefully if the schools you are looking at are really suited to your child (and isn't on your list just because of its prestige), tutor only if you think it's really necessary to close an obvious gap but not just because you think everyone else is (it's not true that everyone else is tutoring!), don't sit too many exams (just choose a small number very carefully, and make them all schools that you would genuinely be happy for your child to attend, even if it's your "safety" school), and most of all, try not to let your own anxieties about the process filter down to your child.

I know it's easy for me to say, since we're already out the other end, but a year from now you will be too. I remember very well how it felt last year, and just wanted to send you all reassurance that, in almost all cases, whatever happens will be for the best, even if it doesn't feel like it now.

My dcs were at a non-selective prep where parental expectations re- 11 plus senior school options are very much managed by the head from the middle of year 5. It is strongly discouraged to go for any more than 4 schools and the head will definitely tell you in no uncertain terms if your dc has no chance of getting into a particular school. This can result in some disgruntled parents in the short term, but is less stressful than sitting a whole load of schools "just in case" and then dealing with the possible fall out. If your child is unlikely to get into a school, the prep head will simply refuse to give them a reference for that school! Prep heads have their reputation to maintain with the senior schools and will look incompetent if they send DC with little chance of meeting their entry requirements. Tutoring may go on, but it is very minimal. They are doing sample papers in school and for h/w anyway so there is no need for more of the same. I realise we were very lucky in this respect. In nearly all cases, DC get into their top choice schools and, in waiting list situations, the head will get on the phones for them.

I should add he was at a state primary with lots of friends going to state secondaries.

gladtobedone we took the DIY route. For several reasons: first the money. Second I wanted control on the work pace, stress level and life balance. Third I wanted a deep understanding of the whole thing so I could accomodate the prep to DS personality. It became a family project and actually quite rewarding.

So sorry Tunis. It's all so depends on what happens on that particular day. With 10 year olds I think that makes a huge difference- another thing wrong with the whole system! I think as someone says however that they do bounce back quite quickly - my DD was fine about it - partly as she had not invested much in that partic school for some reason... But it's still hard after all the work and effort. The system is clearly focused in the first pre interview round on exam ranking and does not take into account any extenuating circumstances or school reference so that is v tough on the kids - and the parents!

Yes crazy2016 there are more of us whose DS or dd didn't get an interview at LU. Gutted . DD already there, DS screwed up on the day because he wanted it so much. Sadness indeed. Hard to see such disappointment.

Over tutoring children does no favours whatsoever in the long run. My dc1 got in off the wait list to a top academic school from a state primary with an hour a week tutoring for 4 terms, plus some parental input. The purpose of the tutoring/parental input was to cover things in maths that the national curriculum in a state school simply does not cover in time for January of year 6, and possibly never does cover in English to a sufficient degree of difficulty. The tutoring was not intended to hot-house into an academic school beyond the child's natural ability level. DC1 is now out the other end, to first choice uni, without a single penny being spent on further tutoring after December of year 6. That is how it should be, but I can tell you that plenty of kids who were over-tutored to get in at 11 either did not do as well as expected academically in the end, (with more than you might think missing their first choice uni offers), or only did so with a good deal of additional tutoring over the years. Madness.

It may be unrealistic to expect schools to be able to spot many over-tutored kids, but you can't blame them for trying.

The arms race that is the 11+ in London is getting a bit ridiculous... If everyone just calmed down, stopped making their children sit gazillions of exams and stopped tutoring everyone would be a lot happier - especially the poor, stressed 10 and 11 year olds who are bearing the brunt of all this collective parental angst. I've had two children go through this system, 6 years apart. Each of them sat for just two schools and neither had any tutoring. Ds, who was at a very ordinary state primary, did a couple of practice papers in the Christmas holidays to get familiar with the exam format and we left dd's exam preparation entirely up to her very good prep. It was fine. Oh, and the numbers sitting for schools weren't dramatically different for dd's year, 6 years after ds so it's not that things have got much harder in that time.

It's so easy to get sucked up into the madness around the whole process but come September there won't be hordes of feral 11 year olds wandering the streets of London because they don't have a school place ...

From reading various MN and 11 plus forum threads, there are some parents who deliberately go for a DIY approach and their DC succeed in getting offers from highly selective schools, including the likes of NLCS and SPGS. What's the thinking behind those who buck the trend of resorting to (sometimes, multiple) tutors?

Are there any others out there who didn't get latymer interview ?

Btw plenty of tutoring goes on in these independent secondaries, particularly in y11 on key subjects, to help boost GCSE grades!

Yes -I think it is odd that some preps say they don't think tutoring is a good idea; this is like saying we don't think you can improve your English or Maths unless its done in our classroom which is rubbish. I would have thought they would be better off recommending particular tutors (including current members of staff who want to supplement their income and know the kids already).

My DC were at a non-selective prep and I'm pretty sure there were industrial levels of tutoring going on. Some closer friends told us outright. Also DD said after the exams her maths teacher asked the class to close their eyes and put up their hands if they had tutoring. She peeked (that's my girl!) and said it was only her and one other child without their hands up.

I would love to say that the tutoring doesn't help but certainly DS had some classmates who were very heavily tutored and did very well. The prep school just says "we don't think it's a good idea or needed but we can't dictate what you do in your own time".

The question of how the preps are responding (or not) to the market conditions / huge competition and the use of tutors is interesting and for us completely connected. Can't speak for all school but having observed what DD was being taught in year 5 and taking a look at a Consortium paper I did wonder when and how the gap to be paper ready was going to be closed. I waited. And then realised that it wasn't going to be closed and so as I wasn't prepared to send DS in to one of these papers, or equivalent, not fully ready I felt I had no option but to get extra help. She has always been within top few of her year and so I didn't feel she was being hothoused. I am very irritated with school - notwithstanding it is a primary objective of a prep (and no 1 point on school website), the fees don't come that easily to us. They then happily post "their" results. I don't know answer is. Even if rules change, someone will cheat. Classic cartel situation. It's London and money talks.

OK.

You clearly know more about preps than I do.

(And I stuck my foot in it earlier in this thread too).

Apologies again.

Have to also agree that its absolute nonsense to say that overtutored kids will be spotted and that in reality its normally the overtutored kids who get into the best schools . Furthermore as the 11 plus is only English and Maths is there really anything wrong with improving these basic skills as much as possible and learning to do exams within a set timeframe? I would however have to disagree with AnotherNewt that no schools/parents are complacent. Although DD is at a state school I know quite a few prep school mums who were led to believe by their school that their DD would get into certain schools who then regretted not tutoring more when their DD failed to do so.

Goodness, this thread has been busy since I last looked! Congrats to all those with interviews and so sorry to those who haven't - it's all so stressful and I think all that parents can do is keep that stress away from their children as much as possible (even if you are awake at night worrying about schools, your DC shouldn't be!).
For those with Latymer interviews this Saturday, they most certainly do not only take the most outgoing and verbal children. I think they are pretty good at spotting which children the school will be the best fit for and in my DD's class now there is a huge mix of children. Yes, they are reasonably bright but some are very extrovert, some are quite shy, some are a bit geeky - what I do really like about LU is that as far as I have seen since DD started there, children can be themselves and don't need to fit into any kind of mould in terms of personality or interests (or the way they look). My DD is slightly old-fashioned in a very sweet way, has some unusual interests and although a lot more confident than she used to be, is not an uber-extrovert. She settled in really quickly and has made some lovely friends, who like her for who she is. My advice to her before the LU interview (and I really wanted her to end up there but hadn't told her that, of course) was to be herself and to help the interviewer out by adding detail to what she was saying eg rather than just saying she liked birdwatching in her spare time, to add where she likes to go and what her best sighting was recently - stuff like that. I told her the more she talked, the easier the conversation would be and the fewer questions she would get asked and that anyway, if she didn't get an offer, she would never see that person again!

Hope that helps a bit - best of luck to all!

I totally agree with Shirley. Schools say don't tutor but they pick the children who do best in the exams and that is all that gets you an interview or a place. Everyone is tutoring - I've heard incredibly scary stories of 4 to 5 hours in the Xmas holidays!!!! So as the numbers grow the schools make the exams harder and harder to try and work out who is really able and the. Everyone tutors even more!!! What a crazy cycle! Anyway my DD is showing much more resilience than me and I should learn from her and be calm!!! But it does annoy me!!!!!

I also think it's absolutely nonsense that over-tutored kids will be spotted and not offered a place. I think the schools say that to try to stop parents tutoring too much but I've never known it to happen. At my DD's non-selective (prep) school, almost all parents tutor to some degree and the kids that get the best/most offers are always the ones who have had the most tutoring.

It's a vicious circle in my opinion. There's no incentive to unilaterally step back and refuse to participate. In our area there simply isn't a state option, so you know you simply must get your child into at least one private school.

When there are between 5 and 20 applicants for each place it would take nerves of steel to not tutor and only apply to 2-3.

So the children are stressed, the parents are stressed and the whole process escalates. I don't think the schools want it to be like this but they have no particular incentive to change it either. Being over subscribed by increasingly able children who are paying large registration fees isn't exactly a disaster.

I think the system needs to change - perhaps along the lines of the Uni application system or the introduction of a London wide consortium system.

But who will initiate the change?

Parents calling up admissions and asking if they could send in a tutor's reference as well as a school one are a bit of a giveaway

This particular school said they have changed the exam a lot in the last couple of years to try and make it tutor proof. Who knows how successful they have been, it must be hard.

There is a huge amount of tutoring amongst prep pupils (though usually only admitted after the event, or discovered because classmates talk to each other).

I've never seen even the slightest whiff of complacency.