Are parent's over involved in their children's education?

Helpnonickname:

I want to pick you up on this point: Ultimately by law parents are responsible for their children's education

Yes - you are right in that ultimately parents are responsible to ensure that their children are in some form of education (home schooling/ private/ state academy or maintained school) and indeed parents can be fined if their children are absent during term time.

but....

THE STATE is responsible for the delivery of the education and its scope/ management.

THE STATE sets the curriculum - not parents

THE STATE sets targets - not parents

THE STATE establishes qualification criteria for teachers - not parents

THE STATE inspects schools and reviews performance - not parents

So I think it is important to understand that for some of us - getting involved is because THE STATE (at the level of an individual school) can FAIL or STRUGGLE to do all it says on the tin.

If you have a child at a school who officially will not allow children to learn long division method and who tell children they are WRONG for writing out calculations vertically you can reach a point as a parent where you just give up on the school, and I did and have posted about it for years here on MN.

Many of us (admittedly mostly internationally educated) at St. Mediocre just quietly taught our kids basic methods of calculation (as we learned) at home. Indeed I find the recent trend of children of non-UK born parents outperforming home students absolutely matched my observation - home parents knew no different and 100% backed the school's approach - foreign parents felt the maths curriculum was unambitious and quietly did more at home.

Personally when you have a teacher ringing you at work and complaining about the fact your child is using My Maths on their own something is deeply wrong. Fortunately I saved the letter sent out to parents asking us to pay for this new gizmo at school which quite clearly stated: Children are welcome to explore lessons and do extra work at home or play the wide range of maths games on offer. I photocopied it and sent it in to the teacher/ with a copy to HT and a query about whether I should approach Birmingham LEA to settle this matter - as I personally find it shocking that a school would be reprimanding a mother for their child wanting to do extra work. The teacher backed down and DD1 continued to use My Maths - given no maths homework was coming home at all.

THAT'S WHY I GOT INVOLVED.

Are parents in grammar schools areas more involved than those live near good comprehensive schools? What about the private school parents compare to the state school parents? What about the economic climate and employment situation in the last ten years? What about the die hard class system? I believe these things made many parents more value their dcs' education than ever before.

Ultimately by law parents are responsible for their children's education. So to what extend parents become too involved?

If the system makes education more selective at a younger age then inevitably good parents will become more competitive and more involved as earlier as possible with their power ie knowledge, skills, money, worship, networking or whatever it takes.

In year 7, I help dc set good homework routines, helped him with revision and tests etc. now in year 10, I will ask him how his day has been, nag him to do homework, and leave it up,to him. He knows he can ask for my help if he wants it ( eg. Buy revision guides), buts it's up to him to regulate his work.

Year 7, if he forgets his pe kit, then I may take it in. Year 10, if he forgets, then he faces the consequences

I had a conversation similar to this about a local school perceived as pushy. I said the children are bright but there is an ethos of learning. I actually said the pushing comes from the parents. I'd rather my do get lower grades, and learn how to work and revise, so if he goes to uni/further ed he has learnt these skills, rather thanme push him, and then he struggles later in life.

helpnonickname raises an important point but I'd argue it's perception.

To help parental involvement is somehow linked to competitive parenting - and I do take the point that those people exist out there and for some parents shining in their child's reflective glory is what they live and breathe for.

But help doesn't discuss the quiet subtext to standardised examinations - especially GCSE.

First be aware that AS Levels are soon to be dropped. www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/11182098/A-level-reforms-a-new-levelof-confusion.html

This in fact will mean that from a University's perspective (and I take the point that there are parents out there that do not desire a University education for their child so this won't apply) - but for those that do desire/ envision University education for our children - this means that your UCAS form [the application procedure for universities in England & Wales] will be judged by your GCSE results, predicted results at A Level and school statement on the pupil.

Now the better you do on the GCSE and your predicted grades the more likely it is you'll be made an offer. Of course work experience in the discipline you may be studying (perspective vet volunteering at a vets/ working on a farm/ etc...) and possibly other outstanding personal characteristics (musical talent/ sporting talent/ etc....) can be a factor.

Whether we want to admit it or not - in essence it's a competition. Of couse not everyone will want to do the same thing - but some subjects are incredibly popular at Universities and entry can be highly competitive.

If a parent sees that coming, understands the ability standard required for that subject area and knows entry is competitive for certain courses - it really isn't parental competitiveness that is the driver.

Different parents have different standard. While my children's primary school teachers think I am over involved many other competitive parents may think I am not doing enough.

I think this is an interesting question - and I could write a novel (and have here on MN - so please do feel free to visit old posts)...

but in a nutshell the problem is this:

PRIMARY SCHOOL: NC LEVEL 4 is GOOD progress [with mosts schools adopting a just get them to scrape a 4c approach] / SECONDARY SCHOOL: C at GCSE is good progress [with most schools skewing teaching in Years 10/11 to D/C boundary pupils as there is no reward getting a B student to an A] - in both cases the schools feel proud they've done their job well by these kids

(oh and by the way nobody but nobody explains that NC L4 in primary puts your kid on track for a target of C at GCSE - it's a rare bird that does better than that - if government were bluntly saying the best your kid will do at GCSE is 'C' (which is statistically the case) if they achieved a Level 4. I wonder how many parents would be so against homework in primary if they were well aware of that statistical trend regarding NC L4 at KS2 SATs?)

GOVERNMENT: NC LEVEL 4c isn't ENOUGH progress [with the government now moving performance metrics to number achieving 4b or better]/ Progress 8 coming in which will track performance of all pupils against a range of subjects: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/415486/Progress_8_school_performance_measure.pdf - but with no concerted attempt to explain to parents of current pupils (unless you are a bit of an anarak - hmmm hmmm ) that these measures are being put in place because they've worked out that high stakes testing and performance tables have skewed teaching effort to 3/4 boundary at KS2 SATs in primary and D/C boundary at GCSEs at 16 (end KS4).

Parents: unless you are an education anorak - you tend to not be aware or alert to these issues until too late. Moreover too many parents are under the impression their children are doing just fine only to find out in secondary they aren't but to be encouraged to believe that's their child's fault (hormones/ puberty/ teenage behaviour/ etc....) rather than perhaps the low standards of their primary which set them up for a fall in secondary.

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I think parents get involved in supporting their children educationally for all sorts of reasons but for me here in Birmingham it was quite simply because the school clearly wasn't ambitious. For us it was painfully clear NC L4 and no higher was the rule staff at St Mediocre were working to.

I was literally pleading with the deputy HT (now a HT elsewhere in Brum) about teaching division (and I include inverse multiplication facts in that) in primary (at the same time the new national curriculum was rolled out for KS1/2 which specifically includes division). This Deputy HT clearly thought it should be left for secondary level - it was too much for primary pupils. That is what some of us PITA parents are dealing with.

The problem at core is that you have devised a system whereby at school district (LEA) level you cannot ensure that every child is taught the same range of things. The new national curriculum for KS1/2 goes some way to prescribing a list of what should be taught and even so far as saying some things MUST be taught/ mastered by certain points - but then for reasons which escape me - you get all wishy washy again in KS3 (basically suggesting the 3 years (Y7 - Y9) are spent consolidating KS2 learning and then listing some extra things but providing no guidance on when or to what level). [I presume the sub-text is that if you were to actually map out what should be next if they followed KS1/ KS2 new national curriculum many parents/ pupils would freak out - they're not ready for algebra or trigonometry].

I think when a government can only suggest that children should read whole books - not MUST or even roughly how many (say 5 fiction/ 5 non-fiction in a school year) - you're in a world of hurt.

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I'm very grateful that the interent is there to support me to support my DDs education.

It is liberating that a poorly explained experiment in science class can be viewed again (this time successfully executed) on you tube - if you haven't discovered visit Univ of Nottingham periodic table: www.periodicvideos.com/ it's worth a visit come Y7 chemistry.

I don't blame the PE teacher who was filling in for the science teacher, off sick again I believe - it's not their subject - but that educational science ship has sailed for that class. I'm sure I wasn't the only parent to ask what happened today to hear how a science experiment didn't work - but I suspect I was in a very small minority to take it upon themselves to show their DC what should have happened and discuss why for a bit. How you get a magnesium burning experiment wrong is another question - but here are some different versions and info on magnesium: www.periodicvideos.com/videos/012.htm at about 3:06 onwards there are experiments. It's quirky and they are stereotypical scientist types - but it's strangely captivating viewing.

That's the reality of education in a Brimingham state secondary and why as a parent and how I interfere.

Actually if you are a journalist you should know that in your topic title

• parents is a simple plural and does not need an apostrophe

• over-involved is AFAIK hypenated.

Or maybe you need to be more involved in your children's education

The law in the UK is clear. It is the responsibility of parents to educate their DC.

They may use schools to help with this if they choose.

I really don't see why a child should be solely responsible for their education. They're not expected to be solely responsible for their health, or their own safety, or their diet.

One of my friend is thinking about this at the moment, should she let DC do what they want to or set more strict rules to help her DC achiving high.

Her Dd1 is a bright kids, as her DH's opinion is let the kids do whatever they like. So for Dd1, she watchs TV and stay on social media a lot everyday, and go out window shopping with friends etc. She achieved well at GCSE, with some A and A. And A level predict A for all 3 subjects. However, now come to University application, she now find her grading is not well enough to apply for the subject she want, so she has to change to another subject. But even with this subject, she can't get in the top University, as she need at least one A in A level. All the University offer she got she is not happy. So the only solution is working hard, hope she can get one A*, then take a gap year to re apply.

If she had know this result, she would have spent less time on TV and social media, put a bit more effor on studying. However, it is a bit late, she can't go down the career path she would like to go down now.

So for my friend, she is a bit confused herself now. As Dd2 is following Dd1's path, spending lots of time on TV and social media. And Dd2 is very bright, should she push her a bit, so she can achive more?

I'll object to possible premise of question: Since when is it not the job of parents to try to get best for their kids? Once it was flagrant nepotism now those with same mindset would do their kids' homework. Was always thus.

I think the Internet development is relevant. Because there's so much more information to be had. So the kids from less financially or socially stressed families get ahead because it's easier for them/their parents to access, process and act on the information. Social deprivation has new indicators.

That all really depends on your definition of 'under their own steam'.

I read to my son every night, pretty much up to the age of nine. I think this gave him a positive attitude to reading. When he showed interest in a subject we allowed him to stay up late to watch relevant documentaries and we bought books for him. There were always books in the house. He has more books in his bedroom bookshelf than we do. We regularly take him to the library.

Before he started at reception, I taught him capital and lower-case letters, initial consonant and short vowel sounds. He could read some words, and knew some stories by heart to pretend-read. He could count to a hundred and do simple sums. As he got older we helped him practice his times-tables and helped him (when he needed it) with maths worksheets.

Very little if any of this had anything to do with the internet. We did it for the same reasons parents teach their children to walk, sing songs, ride bicycles, catch balls and swim. It was the natural thing to do.

On the other hand, as he got older, information online helped us research secondary schools and funding options. I think I also have a better understanding of the curriculum Key stages 1 and 2 and SATs due to the internet, but none of this affected what he did 'under his own steam'.

The internet has helped us enable our son to do well (so far) academically. Our involvement in his education has been very beneficial. He's going to a selective-entry secondary school next year and should get at least SPAG and Maths level 6 SATs. Yes, we have provided supplementary work for him and given him access to computers and the internet. We found this necessary as his primary school rarely provided any homework. But all the work was 'done under his own steam' in the sense that he did it. It would be an almost scarily exceptional 9/10 year-old who would choose to prepare themselves entirely on their own for 11+ exams.

Lily again that's in my view, their choice. If my child was continuously getting detentions for not doing their homework I'd try to find out if something at school was bothering them or if we could make it fun. But if they insisted I'm not going to force the issue. I'd try to find a hobby to get them interested in

education is far more the responsibility of the parents than the school. School give children the opportunity and resources to learn, but they won't use those opportunities and resources without the support and guidance of their parents/carers

parental involvement is the second biggest influence on educational outcomes ( the first being native IQ)

But if they are continuously getting detentions?

I want mine to not get to that stage. If you as a parent are saying I don't care if you get a detention many kids would rather take the hit and do as they please particularly if parents are saying they don't care.

I think you vary it according to age, let them make choices that are acceptable.

"if you don't do your homework, you'll get a detention. You can make that choice but don't expect me to get you out of detention. That's the consequence"

that's how I see it. It's fine people think differently

From what age do you do this, I mean DS 10 doesn't want to wipe his bum, he says 'it's not his way'.

You suggest this is his choice?

Depends on the school and the child. I am more involved with ds's education than I would choose to be (in consultation with his teachers) because his school, although very good, is not geared up for children like him. He is not super bright, even by normal, rather than Mumsnet standards but he is one of a very small group of higher ability children. My other child wll I provided was an ear to bash and loads of biscuits.

I believe in explaining choices and responsibility to them, and allowing them to make their own choices.

Fine for an 18 year old, but an eleven year old? Really?

Maybe at 18 but sorry up until then they are my responsibility and I want them off my hands one day.

Not sure how many 8 year olds have a big enough understanding of life choices and responsibility in order for me to hand it over to them. The same could be said for 10 year olds,12 etc....

There was this thread back in May, which I think proves a good argument for getting more involved as parents.

Lily, again that's up to them. I believe in explaining choices and responsibility to them, and allowing them to make their own choices. If knowing not working hard will make it harder to get a job, and they choose not to, that's up to them. I'd always be there for advice but I'm not there to boss them around - they are their own people

I disagree Lashes.

All our DC need to get jobs in order to survive. They need qualifications and are competing in a global market these days.

Obviously you should never force a kid to do what they are not capable of but they should always do their best. Sorry saying not working hard is ok just because they don't like school isn't going to do any child any good long term.

Lily I don't agree with forcing people to do things they don't want to do personally. By all means offer advice but if someone really hates school I'd try to find something they were good at and liked rather than force the issue.

I feel a lot of parents just want little darlings they can brag about A*s to their friends about. That's what I think is unfair

I think it's impossible to know what people mean by the help they describe giving to their children unless you do a proper study. It's like thin people saying they ate a massive bowl of pasta by which they mean 35g, whereas if I said the same I'd mean 200g. I consider myself to be hands off to the point of slackness with ds but I have no idea if that's objectively true compared with others.
I have to say as well that what is the point of a child struggling with no help, when with help they could actually be learning? Maybe the teacher needs to know that they needed help IYSWIM but in fact the child may have leapt ahead once they'd understood. I still remember nearly everything about my school work that my mum explained to me 1:1, she was brilliant at putting hard concepts at my level, not surprisingly as she knew everything about me.