Further maths GCSE

The best universities ask for physics in addition to double maths: UK maths degrees include a high component of physics. The choice of fourth and fifth subjects indeed doesn't particularly matter.

Nonetheless, in the world beyond undergraduate study, it is very true to say that mathematicians best are rounded. I think this even applies to postgraduate research in mathematics: research requires creativity, originality, life experience, endurance etc, all of which are developed by a well rounded education.

@var123: "I believe certain professional exams use the subtract method"

But that's conservative adult-world. At DD's age I want risk-taking, inference and mistakes they learn from.

@ScottishProf: "You sometimes hear the view that [UKMT] preparation is pointless or cheating or something"

That will be the competitive parents who secretly have their children preparing. I'm not that concerned about the competitions per se, I simply want DD playing with stretchy-stuff to compensate for quite a bit of behaviourist recipe following at school.

@givemeDM: "Mathematicians best are rounded"

I doubt the best Universities for the best mathematicians care much about anything besides the maths e.g. double-maths A-levels plus STEP where applicable. Well provided the [anything] has a good grade.

Isn't A-level further math still offered? Wouldn't that be way more important than GCSE further math, but no college would demand FM to get onto an A-level FM course? So why fret?

fwiw, I was scoring job applications today (we are academics looking for someone with very strong technical math skills). We had 5 other things to score against, 2 were to to do with communication skills, organisational skills, knowledge in our application area and (something else I forget).

One guy impressed me because he had A at history A-level. Mathematicians best are rounded, too.

Jeanne I don't know what your experience is but an applicant is categorically NOT going to be penalised because some or all of their exams were WJEC. Similarly an applicant with all OCR is not going to be looked on more favourably.

Yes, I agree. Most differences are fairly small and are taken into account when setting grade boundaries. Not all OCR papers are considered harder either.

Of course its a good idea to ask MN first so you can interpret what they say!

Jeanne I don't know what your experience is but an applicant is categorically NOT going to be penalised because some or all of their exams were WJEC. Similarly an applicant with all OCR is not going to be looked on more favourably.

Maybe you should ask the school about it? I guess things may change with the alterations to GCSEs, but some do Further or Additional maths as an extra 'twilight' class. Or they may tighten up the setting in the gcse years, which can help a lot with the bright-but-bored - it's a common issue in particular with maths.

IME the optimum number of gcses for a bright kid is 10-11 - allows for a spread of academic subjects but also a couple for the joy of it. If they're only doing 9 then you should check which subjects are mandatory and if that (and the options blocks if the school operates those) allows for others your DC enjoy. If they're doing maths, 2xEng, 3xscience an MFL and then the school makes them do eg RS (and/or another humanity), then that doesn't leave any room for comp sci, anything 'artsy' or tech - I'm really glad my DD was able to do drama, computing and electronic products not just the 'academic' subjects.

At dd school the top set or two take IGcse Maths in yr 10 and further Maths yr 11, next set sometimes take both yr 11. FM is not required for A level Maths. GCSEs are changing over next few years so that may not apply longer term and the difference between iGCSE and GCSE should become less marked, ie. Less coursework and controlled assessments and more emphasis on written exam papers.

On the point about different exam boards- actually they are not all equal and the top universities do notice. They are requested on the UCAS application form. WJEC is considered easy and a bit of a joke, Edexcel and AQA are middle of the road and used by most schools. OCR MEI is MUCH harder, particularly in Maths, and only used by top schools such as Westminster.

Both DC were able mathematicians with the potential to go on and take double maths at A level and at schools able to challenge the brightest. One took Add Maths, which I think is the same as further maths, the other didn't. The one that did described the most useless qualification she would ever get.

I'm not sure she was right. Both schools took their tops sets some way beyond GCSE to ensure the jump to A level was not too great. One simply taught beyond the syllabus in class, the other had them take the GCSE early and then take the Add maths in the esummer along with their other GCSEs.

The latter made sense in that they still had something to work towards so did not simply drop maths for six months. The disadvantages were that Universities can prefer you to take all your exams in one sitting, plus having landed the A* at GCSE priority was given to revising for other subjects (hard subjects which involve essays not writing!) and very little time was spent working on the Add maths. Not least because if you are taking the A level no one will ever look at your Add Maths grade.

So don't worry if the school does not do it. If he is a very able mathsmatician, however, try to have him stretched beyond GCSE, whether in school, on line, or at maths camps.

Of course, the lack of systematic challenge that the current school is providing may be a good reason to switch schools, even if the number and kind of GCSEs is not. Schools that genuinely challenge the best mathematicians every lesson are hard to find, though.

For what it's worth, Winchester College says it normally has boys take 8-10 GCSEs. Doesn't seem to do them any harm in university entrance :-)

Nothing stopping your DC preparing for the UKMT challenges at home - past papers are easy to find. You sometimes hear the view that preparation is pointless or cheating or something, which of course is nonsense: as with anything, they'll improve with practice.

9 GCSEs in good subjects is far better than doing a dozen in less reputable subjects, and getting weaker grades. 9A definitely outranks 7A and 4A for most purposes. The "better" state schools often do less GCSEs, especially now that measures in league tables are switching away from favouring high numbers of GCSEs. Many very good schools don't do further maths GCSE because they don't think it is particularly useful.

BTW note that many maths and physics courses which are very well-regarded (top ten) pick up extra students in clearing. One reason is because we as a country don't really produce "enough" students who want to do maths, physics, chemistry etc at university, but there are also recent effects arising from the government changes. Removal of number caps means that universities are trying to take more students whenever they can, and university management teams are often forcing their best departments into clearing to add a few extra students with high grades.

So well-regarded definitely does not equal over-subscribed, particularly in STEM subjects.

Rather few universities look at GCSEs, and those that do aren't interested in seeing a large number of them. If DC have a choice, encourage them to go for doing a sensible number (sensible meaning doesn't consume every waking minute, leaves time for other interests!) and getting top grades in those they do.

Honestly, var123, if you have a maths degree and your DC look good at maths to you, I wouldn't recommend relying on anything in the GCSE/A level path to provide challenge. Even where the list of topics they cover looks reasonable, the questions they ask are too straightforward for good mathematicians. I think spinoa is spot on, saying that the UKMT challenges (and, more so, the Kangaroos/Olympiads that are the follow-on rounds) are a better bet. Be aware that while each one is aimed at a particular age group, younger children can and do get put in for challenges normally taken by older children, where schools think it appropriate (you can't enter as an individual, only through schools). Maybe download sample papers from the UKMT website and see what level would stretch your DC enough but not too much.

I think the key thing is that DC grow up finding it normal, not terrifying, when they encounter a maths problem they can't for the life of them see how to do. Those really good at maths will just not encounter this at GCSE or A level, but if they go on far enough in maths, they will eventually encounter it (if not before, when they try to solve one of the Millennium Prize Problems!), so they'd better be OK with it.

You need to define precisely what you mean by competitive.

Subjects such as maths and physics are relatively undersubscribed so selection is almost entirely by A level grades. For example, for maths (which you mentioned your DC may wish to study) a student with the required predicted A level grades would get an offer automatically from all but the very top four or five universities. However, offers for maths are high right through the RG - AAA, A*AA+ - so maths is not "easy" to get into.

Meanwhile subjects such as Law are oversubscribed. For such subjects the top ten or more universities are selecting in the sense that students with the required predicted A level grades do not automatically get an offer. The actual offers are however often not higher than offers for less over-subscribed courses at RG universities.

For subjects in the former group GCSEs tend to play rather little role outside the very top universities. For subjects in the latter group GCSEs will usually play some role in determining whether an offer is given.

Absolute numbers of GCSEs are not that important: eight or nine would be plenty, provided that these are in respected subjects. One cannot generalize average GCSE numbers and grades across all RG courses, because of the reasons given above, but most students who are capable of getting AAA at A level will have mostly A*s and As at GCSE, maybe Bs in a few subjects they dropped.

The very top courses may cut on the numbers of As: Oxford cut from interview students with less than 6A. Bear in mind that the important of GCSEs will slightly change when the new numerical grading at GCSE is introduced and when AS levels are dropped. The top universities may well use 9s in the new system to look for top candidates, and universities such as Cambridge which currently place more weight on AS than GCSE will have to use GCSE instead.

Also if you apply and get offered a place based on expected levels (5A* 5 ) then the place can be with drawn if not met. Colleges have careers advisors and literature that talks the students through options.

You need to look at course requirements; I haven't a clue what you mean by 'competitive' and I spit nails with contempt on the RG brand.

7-8 academic subjects at GCSE is as much as most require, even medical schools will often allow in a kid with a single C at GCSE but 7xA/A* otherwise.

Lots of kids get 11/12 GCSE . But he pass rate is 5 in core subjects.this is what schools are rated on. If say popular degrees at a top university would take the highest achievers of that year. Could vary. But would expect A* for more challenging coarses. Im sure you could ring and ask.

Further maths has been dropped at DD's school for time being for kids starting GCSEs in 2016+. Because the new regular math GCSE is so tough they don't see the need for further maths.

Thread here.