Further maths GCSE

if he's bright then I suspect, Var123, he'll be quite bored in Double Science. That's how it worked for my DS (who had picked up most his science from Horrible Science books, actually). DS (who is generally a slacker at school, btw) was very worried not to do Double Sci because he knew it would be deathly dull. Before Triple he disliked Biology most but now (end of y10) he is projected A in Biology & maybe A* in Physics. So my feeling is that triple is well worth it if they are already getting high enough marks in science.

On the different exam boards issue - I teach in a secondary school and I can tell you there is a big difference in the standard of the GCSE exams from different exam boards for SOME subjects. Departments in some schools spend a lot of time looking at which exam board offers easier material and exams. There is then quite a bit of switching boards each year.

Since UCAS applications require a student to put the exam board on the application, it must be used by some unis.

I did also specifically say that OCR MEI is the hardest. This is not the same as OCR.

Could you buy the Further Maths books from Amazon and start working through them? As far as I can see, there's a lot of overlap with the A level.

I know my DDs school doesn't require FM GCSE in order to do A level FM. I doubt anywhere does - it would exclude too many who didn't get the chance to do it.

Yy to it being fun. She's got her exams next week, did a pair of past papers today and was as happy as Larry. (OTOH some schools enter the kids for the exam but don't teach them which can be a lot less fun)

Triple science is what higher ability sets do usually anyway, if the school offers triple science that is. So I wouldn't worry about it.
Maybe check whether your local FE college requires further math at GCSE to do further math at A-level. This is first college I could find that stated so explicitly, they only wanted A/A* at regular math to do Further Math A-level; no mention of further math GCSE.

@OddBoots, DD's school currently does EPQ and in terms of her personal development I think that looks worthwhile regardless of whether they tick any boxes for anyone else. A quick search says A* = 70 UCAS points, so same territory as a music G8 etc.

Actually, I might be wrong about the UCAS point bit - I can't remember, sorry.

Extended Project Qualification - the level 3 is usually offered alongside A Levels for more able and motivated students - they have some support but for the most part they are independent projects on a subject of the student's choosing resulting in a report of 5-6000 words or an object and 2000 words. They have UCAS points and universities do seem to think of them quite highly. My ds is only Y11 so he hasn't looked into to in much depth yet.

Different sixth forms/colleges have different entry requirements for A Level physics, some accept double science. Regardless though it is obviously easier to so A Level physics with triple.

I'm also wondering about the 'well rounded' bit - I wonder if there is any value in an EPQ dissertation in that regard.

Rounded: What are good indicators for that? I don't think it's A-level choices e.g. a humanities A-level tacked on to a set from maths/sciences.

The guidance I was given (fits with training about not being age-prejudiced) was to consider what opportunities they should have had given the stage of their career.

For someone who went straight from school to Uni & just graduated, they're 21. Apart from cover letter and layout of CV, what pre-interview chances have they to show they can communicate well? Hence the high grade at A-level history carries some weight (about comms skills) in someone who got a Uni math degree.

Someone with 20 yrs work experience, I'd be looking for different evidence.

@ spinoa et al: "The best universities ask for physics in addition to double maths"

Interesting. I decided to look at one of those "top" Universities (Cambridge). Maths + STEP are required by all colleges. Further, Physics or three science/maths required by some. First year options are pure and applied or mathematics with physics.

The admissions guide says "you should not worry if you are not taking A-level Physics because we teach Theoretical Physics courses from scratch" which makes sense. I don't know what A-level physics is like these days, but knowing most of Nelkon & Parker didn't seem that useful for undergraduate maths.

@noblegiraffe: "I think the GCSE further maths papers are more challenging and more fun"

Fun is the thing. DD says she "loves" maths and always lights up at the prospect of doing some at home. My old and jaded fretting isn't really about the maths, it's about preserving that delightful youthful enthusiasm.

Rounded: What are good indicators for that? I don't think it's A-level choices e.g. a humanities A-level tacked on to a set from maths/sciences.

*"UK maths degrees include a high component of physics". Is that right? Not disputing it, but a course in physics at university too and I know my maths helped my physics but not the other way around.

Maybe applied maths uses physics?*

A lot of "applied maths" is actually physics these days, and many "applied maths" groups call themselves "applied maths and theoretical physics" as a consequence, see

www.damtp.cam.ac.uk

The Cambridge maths admissions guide discusses which colleges insist on physics for maths entrance (most of them).

Look at the courses offered by virtually any maths degree in the UK and you will notice a lot of modules with physics titles. Most theoretical physicists are based in maths departments in the UK. A lot of theoretical physics is returned under the maths panel of the Research Excellence Framework rather than the physics panel.

Unfortunately it seems to come as a shock to many maths undergraduates that applied maths at university is not 17th century mechanics (as it is at A level), but modern day physics, engineering and mathematical biology.

So we don't consider whether they are best mathematicians from the best universities. Fair enough, might be different recruiting for purely mathematical jobs.

It is very different when recruiting for purely mathematical jobs, although broader skill sets definitely play a role as well as ability and achievement in mathematics.

Even if you give your life to academia, you probably still have to teach, or at least tutor, so its always better to be able to emphasise with others and ability to explain what you mean.

Even if you don't teach, you still have to get research grants to get on in academia, which definitely requires very strong communication and leadership skills.

I can only speak from coal-face of our current procedures.
We didn't specify in the advert anything to do with where they went to university so that isn't part of the shortlisting criteria. (Is it even legal to put that in a job advert?) So we don't consider whether they are best mathematicians from the best universities. Fair enough, might be different recruiting for purely mathematical jobs.

I'd be amazed if Uni origin were ever mentioned during the panel discussions. Titles of PG dissertations were relevant for the candidates without work experience. Is it normal for recent graduates to list nothing about work experience? We may be ivory tower academics, but I'd like to see evidence that they turn up regularly, are good team workers & do as they're asked even if it's boring & tedious.

I think the GCSE further maths papers are more challenging and more fun than C1. It has an overlap of content, but it also has stuff not on A-level like ratio and matrices, and it tests your algebra more. I'd certainly recommend it as a course to a GCSE student wanting more challenge (and I'd suggest they sit the exam too, like I said the papers are fun). I think even with the new GCSE, further maths will help with A-level because while the new GCSE is tougher it still doesn't include calculus.

Whoever upthread said that preparing for the UKMT maths challenges might be seen as cheating obviously isn't aware that the UKMT sends out monthly challenge sheets to schools who sign up so that they can help their students prepare! There are plenty of kids out there getting lots of help working through UKMT style problems so that they'll do well in the challenges and Olympiads. It's worth asking your DC's maths teacher to sign up if your DC are interested. The UKMT also have books and past paper bundles for sale on their website.

My DS's school doesn't offer Further Maths GCSE but will let them sit the Edexcel Level 3 certificates in Algebra and/or Statistical mMthods if they study them independently.

There is a bit of risk aversion in these qualifications because they are pass/fail not graded so if you fail you have lost nothing and don't need to put it on your UCAS form but the positives of this system is that it lets students reach a higher level and at the same time develop independent study skills which will also help later on.

My ds is aiming for an A* in GCSE maths and has taken the Algebra certificate, he hopes to do double maths (and physics and computer science) at A Level and having had a quick look at some of the A Level stuff the algebra has given him a bit of a stepping stone.

Dd did additional maths this year in the form of FSMQ. From what I can make out, it contained about 3/4 of core 1 and bits of core 2 and mechanics 1. So, as far as I can see, it has spread some of AS out over another year. It is a bit of a step up from GCSE, but not outside the reach of a child who has a good understanding at GCSE level. I am sure your DCs, like my dd, would enjoy it. However, if they are just wanting to do more maths at home, they may as well look at AS.

I think maths is a mixture of learning the techniques and practising applying them. They need both in order to improve. With that in mind, dd will be taking a break from the learning to do more on the UKMT things over the next few months. I don't think one is the right thing to do and the other wrong. It depends on where your child is in maths and what they wan to do.

I find that one of he problems of having a child who is good at STEM subjects is making sure they are doing well in the other subjects too. This does not seem to be a problem with your DSs, but it is worth keeping an eye on.