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Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Is there anything in the schools case for dd's admission appeal (hopefully a quite quick read)

64 replies

stilllearnin · 03/05/2015 13:03

Hi. I have an appeal for my daughter's first preference school this week (she got none of her preferences). I am not sure what I expected to see but the school's case that the panel cannot admit more children does not seem very substantial.

It is very oversubscribed school, and children are admitted on appeal. But the appeal paperwork shows the school only has its PAN at each year throughout the school (so presumably people have left to even things out?). But that to me means that there is not a big overcrowding issue and weakens their side of the balancing act (or I may be getting a bit too optimistic here).

The school's case appears to be:

more pupils mean less teacher time, problems with differentiation and setting, and a squeeze on GCSE options.

the DfE want only 20 pupils per DT class and so there is a squeeze on DT spaces.

Some lessons are being taught in the wrong classrooms (ie RE in MFL classrooms)

They are 2 tech rooms short of the recommended amount and they cannot extend A level sciences due to lab space.

There is a wide range of SEN (but actually not very many pupils with a statement - 13 in total - although I do recognise there lots of children will have additional needs and no statement)

There is 90% occupancy of classrooms (I am not sure what this means - does it mean 90% of capacity or only 10% space to walk around and have furniture or resources).

I did not really intend to challenge the school's case at all. It seems fairly accepted/ obvious that admitting more pupils will put pressure on staff and resources. But there does not appear to be that much in terms of concrete grounds here?

I know we are all pretty sick of this stuff this time of year. But does anyone have any thoughts and perhaps anything I could bring up. (Presumably the panel will do most of that though). It is a mass stage one hearing and then individual stage two's if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance of any views.

OP posts:

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 22:16

Just a heads up the DFE say it's max of 35 in any class. Not subject specific

er wrong!

and exactly my previous point.

wrong on so many levels I really can't be bothered.

Good night.

PandaMummyofOne · 04/05/2015 22:15

Sooty caught post too soon.

That's what I have to work with each academic year anyway. ( The guidelines I mean).

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 22:15

Cheers Panda. That is useful.

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Charis1 · 04/05/2015 22:15

I know plenty of people who are on panels, I don't think anything has changed since I last did.

the trouble is a lot of people who make these appeals just have no idea of what actually goes on in a school, how it is run, what the restrictions are, what staff can and cannot be asked to do, etc.

PandaMummyofOne · 04/05/2015 22:13

Just a heads up the DFE say it's max of 35 in any class. Not subject specific.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 22:13

Sorry Charis I seem to have touched a nerve. I think what titchy is saying is that the panel makes the decision so I am not really asking a teacher to break a rule. I was just wondering what the law was so that I had a rough idea what I was asking about. As I see it, I am only asking questions at stage one. It is for the panel to draw a conclusion. I get to put my case, at it were, at stage two.

There has been quite a lot of changes to panels' work with the current code. It is a lot more prescriptive (see the 'must' written in bold everywhere!). I still cannot see where I said the case was weak. But not to worry, I think I get your drift.

I shall report back on stage one for the pp who has one coming up - in case it helps at all.

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Naynay2408 · 04/05/2015 22:09

Oh dear Chris, its a good job you are havent paneled any appeals for a while because from what iv read, it's hard to believe that you would be impartial in your approach to an appeal for a oversubscribed school. Yes you are a teacher, but the panel ultimately decides if the prejudice caused to a child from not being admitted to an oversubscribed school out weighs the prejudice that would be caused to the school/efficient use of resources etc...in line with the admissions code 2012

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 21:47

well, I was a teacher in a different school, so I knew what was reasonable, and what was not, which some appeal panel members didn't really.

And yes you are talking about expecting staff to break the rules, to which their correct response would be to withdraw from the class room and call for immediate union assistance.

titchy · 04/05/2015 21:37

Oh god off on that one again.

No one is talking about teachers breaking the law. Just whether a school can cope with an extra kid. They usually can despite being at PAN. The appeal panel makes the decision in any case.

I'm finding it difficult to believe you were an impartial panel member tbh.

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 21:31

any teacher colluding with breaking that "guidance" would lose any union protection. It is illegal to ask a teacher to do it.

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 21:30

I assume you don't sit on appeal panels...... yes, have done many times, but not in the last couple of years.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 21:06

Well my dc does not have a statement and not LAC so maybe I'll cancel my leave and go into work instead.

I did not say the school case was weak.

Where do I find the law on limits in science and tech please? The school says its guidance not law.

OP posts:

titchy · 04/05/2015 20:44

Don't be ridiculous charis - if that was the case no one would ever win an appeal.

The school will say it's full, but the appeal panel actually makes the decision as to whether that is actually true.

I assume you don't sit on appeal panels......

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 20:39

stilllearnin - yes, decades of experience, and the school being full does seem to be the issue, the only criteria that will get your Dc into a full school are if they have a statement specifying that school, very rare, or if they are LAC. Otherwise, the number of students that can be allowed into a Dt or science class is limited by law, LA and statemented children will receive massive additional funding to increase staffing, to make it possible to vary the time table slightly to get round that.

You may not mean to sound belittling, but you are calling their arguments "weak" when they are not, they are quite conclusive. 90% occupancy of classrooms, for example, is over capacity in science, and most SEN children thee does are not statemented.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 17:41

Charis luckily belittling isn't my style I am not sure if you have any experience but the school being full is not the issue really -or at least its not as simple as that - or there would not be any appeals, would there?

Yes crowd control is what I was imagining, hence I have only just started looking at the school case now.

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HSMMaCM · 04/05/2015 17:26

The group stage 1 was really just crowd control with some people asking sensible questions, some asking ridiculous ones and some staying silent. Stage 2 was all about why this was the only school for my child. I failed at appeal for that school, but got into another at a much more civilised appeal, where 6 of us went to stage 1 and then went for coffee while we had our individual interviews.

Just prepare yourself with information about why this is the only school for your child, based on the school and what it offers (not your working hours, commute, etc).

The school we got into was outside our catchment, but far better for DD than the catchment school we failed to get into.

My brother got his son in on appeal to a school which was the only one to ofer triple science (for example).

Naynay2408 · 04/05/2015 17:18

HSMMaCM any chance you can share your experience with us. I have my appeal in just under 3 weeks time. I have been informed there is over 100+ appeals for this school. However no mention on it being a group stage 1. Any experiences that can be shared here will be really helpful for my confidence and what to expect.

Charis1 · 04/05/2015 17:17

don't belittle their arguments. The cannot breach the H and S rules about capacity, and it sounds like they ARE full

HSMMaCM · 04/05/2015 17:08

We had a group stage 1 which was awful, but we had to submit any additional evidence before stage 2, not on the day.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 16:41

and we don't want that! I'll submit it. To be honest the admin has been a bit patchy. I think I may have made friends with the clerk due to numerous errors and my little phone calls - eg I don't know if you have already realised but the dates of the hearings don't make sense, or you haven't put everything in my appeal pack! We've managed to have quite a laugh along the way. So I will submit it and then take it with me in case the clerk does not pass it on. Thanks.

OP posts:

eddiemairswife · 04/05/2015 16:24

If you have all your evidence ready do submit it before stage 2. If the chair decides that there is not time for the panel to read it through if it is presented on the day, then the appeal would probably have to be adjourned to another date.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 15:15

Oh I checked the current pupil numbers again - bang on PAN in every year! How odd. Maybe there will be an explanation or revision tomorrow!

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Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 15:13

Thank you admission. The one page limit is only for evidence submitted on the day and we have had fair warning. But yes, it is about justice being seen to be done. The panel do need to show they have taken everything into account. I would not want to submit reams on the day in case the panel cannot assimilate it all (or I annoy them). But what I have in mind is more, in case they question what I am telling them eg the name change (which has relevance to my already submitted case). Rather than whole new grounds. It is the work of seconds to look that over, although I realise I am one of many. I'll look at the code too and then submit it in advance of stage two, plus take it on the day. I think it would be reasonable for the chair to allow it.

I am typing up my stage 1 questions in order of importance now ready for tomorrow. stage 2 is next week.

The only plan B is home ed and wait on the lists so I want to give it my best shot!

Lucas despite my experience I am rubbish at personal matters! (hence the not quite having my evidence in order).

OP posts:

admission · 04/05/2015 14:37

there is no such thing as a one page limit. Quite frankly if that was properly adhered to, then that would be cause for a submission to the Local government ombudsman as the whole premise is that both the appellant and the person representing the school are allowed to submit anything they wish to.
Submitting new evidence on the day is fraught with danger. It is up to the Chair of the panel to decide whether to allow new submissions either written or verbal. In many cases they would be sympathetic to the parent in allowing it but if it is a substantial change to the appeal documentation there is a possibility that they would call either a temporary or longer adjournment to allow the school to consider the implications of the new information.
If you want to submit new evidence then you should submit it now, so it can go to all parties before the appeal. If they start saying that you cannot submit more info or that you have exceeded the one page then I would ask them to put that in writing to you. Then when you have it I would phone the LGO!
In terms of how appeals go, I would say that the schools rep would expect to get a grilling off the panel at stage 1 and that can sometimes raise a concern in the appellants mind about what is coming their way.But most panels are very careful to be gentle with the appellant and I would certainly as Chair, bounce on the schools rep if they started being rude or worse.

Original poster

stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 14:29

Oh I will look at the Code. You had 10 days to submit evidence here from when you first submit your appeal and you can take 1 additional page on the day which I have from a counsellor. But I want to cover all questions and things that I take for granted - such as dd having changed her name due to bullying - I have not fully evidenced.

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