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Original poster

Is there anything in the schools case for dd's admission appeal (hopefully a quite quick read)

64 replies

stilllearnin · 03/05/2015 13:03

Hi. I have an appeal for my daughter's first preference school this week (she got none of her preferences). I am not sure what I expected to see but the school's case that the panel cannot admit more children does not seem very substantial.

It is very oversubscribed school, and children are admitted on appeal. But the appeal paperwork shows the school only has its PAN at each year throughout the school (so presumably people have left to even things out?). But that to me means that there is not a big overcrowding issue and weakens their side of the balancing act (or I may be getting a bit too optimistic here).

The school's case appears to be:

more pupils mean less teacher time, problems with differentiation and setting, and a squeeze on GCSE options.

the DfE want only 20 pupils per DT class and so there is a squeeze on DT spaces.

Some lessons are being taught in the wrong classrooms (ie RE in MFL classrooms)

They are 2 tech rooms short of the recommended amount and they cannot extend A level sciences due to lab space.

There is a wide range of SEN (but actually not very many pupils with a statement - 13 in total - although I do recognise there lots of children will have additional needs and no statement)

There is 90% occupancy of classrooms (I am not sure what this means - does it mean 90% of capacity or only 10% space to walk around and have furniture or resources).

I did not really intend to challenge the school's case at all. It seems fairly accepted/ obvious that admitting more pupils will put pressure on staff and resources. But there does not appear to be that much in terms of concrete grounds here?

I know we are all pretty sick of this stuff this time of year. But does anyone have any thoughts and perhaps anything I could bring up. (Presumably the panel will do most of that though). It is a mass stage one hearing and then individual stage two's if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance of any views.

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Original poster
stilllearnin · 29/05/2015 07:39

Hello I think most of the pp here are aware from another thread that our appeal was successful! We were one of the 8 admitted out of an eventual 43. So the advice here was absolutely invaluable because it really was the stage 1 that opened up a space for us! Thanks so much everyone Flowers

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Original poster
stilllearnin · 11/05/2015 11:26

Hello, I've been away for the weekend! The Panel asked me why we did not go for a similar school (I was able to answer but not sure whether it is a good answer). They also asked if I had looked round the allocated school and I had not as it was not one of our preferences. Apart from that there was some questions but not many really. I am not very hopeful but I would like to be pleasantly surprised of course? Smile

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Naynay2408 · 10/05/2015 02:18

Stilllearnin don't be hard on yourself. You did the best at the time, given the stressful nature of this whole process. I hope you receive the outcome you want, totally understand how you must feel. Stay strong and don't despaire everything happens for a reason. I will keep you updated on my hearing.

ThatIsNachoCheese · 09/05/2015 10:42

I'm sure you did better than you feel now. Its like a job interview, you always come out thinking you should have said this or that etc.
What kind of things did they ask?
Really am keeping my fingers crossed for you, please let us know when you hear

Original poster
stilllearnin · 09/05/2015 08:48

Well, I don't think I did that well. My first Sad. The panel was polite but to be honest I am not sure if they thought my case was weak from the start.

I rambled - and I am disappointed in myself for that. So I would say if you have it coming up try to practise what you are going to say so that you emphasise your main points. Good luck everyone!

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ThatIsNachoCheese · 07/05/2015 21:13

Oh wow, they're really stringing it out for you!
Enjoy the wedding and best of luck tomorrow, come back and let us know how you get on Smile

Naynay2408 · 07/05/2015 10:08

Take care...spell check on phone has a mind of its own!

Naynay2408 · 07/05/2015 10:07

We'll enjoy your day. Wish you all the best for tomorrow, I know exactly how you feel right now. Tack care, oh and let us know how it goes...as you have kindly shared with us so far. I have mine on the 22/may.

LucasNorthsTwiglets · 07/05/2015 10:05

What a shame that you have the 2 stages on different days - at least our was over and done with in one day. Onec the appeal is over you then play the 'watching the postman every day to see if he stops at your house' game :)

Original poster
stilllearnin · 07/05/2015 09:43

Thank you so much. There's a few people on these boards I'm sending good vibes out to. Off to a wedding today- stage 2 appeal tomorrow!

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Coconutty · 07/05/2015 07:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
stilllearnin · 06/05/2015 21:53

I still have stage 2 (I think if there are less of you, it'll be in one go). But we will hear next week. It is very very consuming but to be honest, I am not sure whether what you say on the day is very important as long as you have a clear case on paper. I am not nervous but as I say I'm struggling to concentrate on anything else. I have another in 2 weeks!

Good luck. The panel want to understand so that it can make a good decision and so will not try to be intimidating or anything.

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ThatIsNachoCheese · 06/05/2015 20:35

Do you know when you will hear? Good luck! Ours is two weeks on Monday and I am getting to the point of obsession about it. I think we have a good case but am hugely confused by the whole thing.
Reading this thread has helped a lot Smile

Original poster
stilllearnin · 05/05/2015 18:32

Yes there is only the PAN in each year group. 270 (10x27). They've admitted at appeal in the past and so gone above PAN but then pupils have left to the extent that all years are back at PAN.

The panel was reasonably forensic in its questioning. One pointed out that the classrooms were the recommended size for 30.

I agree nothing did happen with the rep but honestly people were actually at the wrong appeal as the letters were wrong! The admin was done by the clerk. She's nice but not really on the ball.

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admission · 05/05/2015 18:13

Given that there 42 appellants it is not a surprise that at the end of the part 1 session that it would be the panel that would withdraw to another room.
However the clerk should have not allowed the school's rep to leave at the same time, they should have stayed with the parents until the panel had properly left the room.
Not a critical mistake but as usual it is not what actually happened but what could be construed to have happened that is all important.
The comment about the academy not having to abide by the net capacity calculator I would definitely have challenged.
Did you resolve the question of exactly how many were in each year group?

Original poster
stilllearnin · 05/05/2015 16:02

Thanks ph I understood that but there is so much misinformation around that there can never be too much clarity Smile

I think the panel was on the ball so I am not properly worried about the rep leaving with the panel. But it is grounds to complain I know and I admit it narked me that the clerk could be so relaxed about it. A couple of parents were on their feet after I brought it to her attention. People were not happy with the decision, imagine if someone wanted to claim collusion!

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prh47bridge · 05/05/2015 15:20

Just for clarity, that decision from the panel means they have to admit at least 8 appellants. It does not mean they will only admit 8. They could choose to admit more.

The school's representative should not be alone with the panel at any point, so leaving with the panel is definitely wrong.

Original poster
stilllearnin · 05/05/2015 14:16

Hello. Well, I can say that the Panel was very fair in allowing parents speak. Also they did question the school case a lot. They had no problem with parents asking more than one question and checked several times that these were answered. Overall it felt fair and not intimidating - but my advice is make sure your questions are answered properly.

I do wish we had been more tenacious to be honest as there was little more detail from the school. They find that 27 to a class that is big enough for 30 is ok because they think it is better for the children. It probably is, but it is a bit galling for the appellants. Another parent brought up that if they had to stick to the net capacity calculator the PAN would increase by another 118 children each year!! The response was that we are an academy and so that does not apply.

So the panel decided that it could admit another 8 before prejudice occurs. We thought that was a bit low really. but better than nothing. There are 42 of us so still not a great chance.

One blooper, the school rep left with the panel as it went to consider its decision. I said to the clerk at the time - that looks bad, they are supposed to be separate. But she said they are going to separate places. Seeing as we had all had different details of today (times, dates, and even the school we were appealing to!), I admire her optimism.

Oh, all in all it took over 2 hours. In case anyone is looking at parking and other arrangements.

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admission · 05/05/2015 12:48

I am afraid that Charis1 is putting forward views that are quite common within the teaching community, that what is required is smaller classrooms, smaller classes etc and no extra pupils.
No one who sits on appeal panels, that I know, underestimates the difficulty of teaching any class of any size. The panel is independent but still has on it one member who is deemed to be the education member of the panel and has either current or recently past experience of schools. The decisions made are about a balance and that is why there are 3 minimum on the panel, so that there can be a difference of opinion over the outcome of the appeal. In the vast majority of cases that I have sat on, the outcome has been unanimous but sometimes there is a split vote when you get to those cases which can go either way under the balancing act.
All I would say to all parents is to believe in the impartiality and fairness of the panel to make the best decision possible in the circumstances of the case and the school, even if the answer is not the one that you would like.

Millymollymama · 05/05/2015 11:28

I think Charis was trained by the Union! Thank goodness most appeal panels have better trained people on board!

I used to give evidence for my LA. I found the appeal panels were scrupulously fair, made people feel that they listened to all the evidence (even when it was very iffy) and made well informed, justifiabe, decisions. Lots went against us (the LA) - but not all. If anything, the appeal panel bent over backwards for the appellants.

prh47bridge · 05/05/2015 07:59

yes, have done many times, but not in the last couple of years

If that is true I am disappointed at your lack of knowledge. This is a fairly standard case from the school and is definitely not good enough to justify rejection of all appeals. If they were well over net capacity, for example, it would be a strong case but simply being full to PAN is not enough to prevent the appeal panel admitting further pupils other than in infant class size cases. But the case actually being put does not justify the view that the prejudice to the school from being asked to accept additional pupils is so extreme that none can be allowed. Given this case I am not surprised by the OP's statement that there are successful appeals most years.

the number of students that can be allowed into a Dt or science class is limited by law

Rubbish. There is a long standing convention that class sizes in practical lessons should not exceed 20 but it has no basis in law. Contrary to your statement it is not in any way illegal to ask a teacher to breach this limit.

If you were an appeal panellist as you claim I can only conclude that the training you received was seriously deficient to the point where, had appellants discovered the deficiencies, the decisions of any appeal panel in which you were involved may have been open to challenge on the basis of failure to act independently.

Naynay2408 · 05/05/2015 07:24

Stilllearnin, hope it goes well for you I know exactly how you feel. Keep us informed. Good luck

LucasNorthsTwiglets · 05/05/2015 07:06

the trouble is a lot of people who make these appeals just have no idea of what actually goes on in a school, how it is run, what the restrictions are, what staff can and cannot be asked to do, etc.

It doesn't really matter whether parents understand that or not though. That is why the panel is there - to decide who will 'come off worst', as it were, the school or the child.

Original poster
stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 22:25

Good night. I was only asking for views and I have taken your comments on board. Thanks

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Original poster
stilllearnin · 04/05/2015 22:23

Charis. I see. sorry. Well, I do think you have to understand that appellant parents are just asking. It is the panel that you are cross with for not understanding I think. I will see how it goes. I do not hold out much hope but I do have to try. The appeal is a legal right and as such it is open to me to use it.

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