Church Schools

"the best schools can be successfully targeted by those who put in the most effort no matter what their religious beliefs."

Except when the school in question admits by use of a lottery system or by 'fair banding', which two of the schools my ds has applied for do - these are schools which are top 10 oversubscribed schools in the UK.

prh Whilst places at The London Oratory are most sought after and so they can be most selective, especially having resisted diocesan pressure to adopt distance criteria, many London Catholic Schools are becoming increasingly selective. The increasing shortage of school places at both primary and senior level in London means that even faith schools that were not particularly popular in the past are becoming very oversubscribed and imposing more demanding admissions criteria eg baptism by 6 months etc. As a result the social make up of schools is changing, a development that is understandably met with different reactions amongst the clergy / priesthood.

I know of a church that has "suggested donations" to the collection for those wanting the schools forms signed

If they refuse to sign the form on that basis it would be a valid case for parents to appeal.

Oratory are challenging it at Judicial Review

In my view they are wasting their money. The Schools Adjudicator appears to have followed the correct process and I cannot see any basis on which their decision can realistically be challenged. It is possible the courts will surprise me but I think it is unlikely.

Indeed, I think their proposed admission arrangements for 2016 are still pushing very hard against the limits of what is allowed under the Admissions Code. It isn't as clearly in breach as the old arrangements but they may still be open to challenge.

I should add that most RC schools are nowhere near as restrictive as London Oratory.

"The parents of poor, low achieving dc are clearly not organised enough."

How convenient!

I still don't see how a non baptised adult parent can suddenly become a Catholic without proving faith and having numerous one to one chats with a priest - therefore my dc will always be excluded from the London Oratory School on the grounds of faith.

And tax payers are funding this discrimination against disadvantaged children?

The parents of poor, low achieving dc are clearly not organised enough.
Also, the catchment area of The Oratory is huge - it can bypass unorganised families living nearby and admit those more suited to its ethos living further away. I notice that The Oratory requires information on both the mother and the father's religion/mass attendance - does that mean a dc with two parents get more brownie points?

Tiggy Oratory are challenging it at Judicial Review, www.london-oratory.org/admissions/6.html almost certainly in their continuing defence of the service criteria humanism.org.uk/2013/11/05/london-oratory-school-challenges-schools-adjudicators-decision-must-rewrite-admissions-policy/

It's astonishing how schools using strict religious criteria manage to keep out low achieving and poor children. Only 3% of children at the Oratory are described as 'low achieving'. Only 6% are on free school meals. One of the nearest comprehensives to the London Oratory has 29% on FSM and quadruple the number of low attainers.....

Aren't low achieving children just as much in need of a faith education as clever ones?

Or is it not really about children and their needs but about the aspirations and faith commitment of adults?

I know of a church that has "suggested donations" to the collection for those wanting the schools forms signed

As part of his religious role it is not unreasonable for him to highlight hypocrisy among those who attend the church for which he is the minister.

He could but the school cannot take that information into account for admissions purposes. It would therefore be pretty pointless.

Clavinova I can assure you that for Oratory the planning starts at year 1 minus 9 months or earlier. The whole reason that the most selective Catholic Schools are also socially selective is that the criteria take planning and committment to conform to, that might arise from Faith or it might arise from the desire for a faith education for cultural reasons, or for educational reasons. I suspect that there are few parents who would go to the lengths required purely for educational reasons, but how many parents would have continued to be first or second generation lapsed Catholics if schooling of their children had not been the issue. We certainly faced some pressure from the Priests at my DHs old school. Certainly as far as Oratory goes with it's brownie points lottery friends who are Catholic complain about all the 10 year old altar boys and their families who tick off the brownie points and then disappear from active Parish life once the admissions process is finished.

'they do not turn away non Catholics who want their children baptised' - not exactly, but my local Catholic church reserves the right to defer baptism if there is a concern over faith and suggests attending mass for 6 months prior to the child's baptism to prove that the parents have the intention of bringing the child up as a Catholic.
Another Catholic church suggests having the child baptised at the same time as the parent/s' indoctrination if the parents haven't been baptised as Catholics. As per my previous question, how do non-baptised parents become Catholics (to fulfil the London Oratory's criteria) without proving faith/passing a test of faith?

Of course, any poor child who's been dragged along to mass every Sunday for seven years deserves their place at a faith school but I think you'll find the better(more desirable) the school, the more demanding the 'faith criteria'. Perhaps requirements are a bit lapse when Catholic churches are surrounded by only average/mediocre Catholic schools?

As part of his school application duties the priest should fill in the form correctly according to the admission criteria.

As part of his religious role it is not unreasonable for him to highlight hypocrisy among those who attend the church for which he is the minister.

He can do both.

This isn't an uncommon situation in my area - the religious high schools are seen as a fail safe in case of failing the 11+.

The priest at my church seems happy to accept that when a child passes the 11+ they will choose the non-religious grammar school, and are happy to sign the form irrespective of where older siblings went.

If your friend is a regular church attender, I think she just needs to be blunt with the priest that dc1 passed the 11+, and there were no local religious grammar schools. Dc2, on the other hand, will be better suited to a high school, and your friend believes that a religious high school will be the best match for the child.

How do you access Catholic baptism and First Holy Communion without proving faith or lying about faith (it's still a test of faith even if you lie)? Don't children have to attend classes prior to Communion? Does the priest decide if they're ready or not? The schools might not be able to make judgements but the priests are agents for the schools.The London Oratory School and others still require the child to be in 'full communion' and to have at least one Catholic parent. How do non-Catholic adults (parents) become Catholics without proving or lying about faith? It's not just a question of meeting the attendance criteria as suggested by FishWithABicycle.

The point is that the faith criteria must be objective, not that they cannot exist. The school cannot make subjective judgements about the strength or otherwise of the parents' faith. They must use objective measures such as church attendance. Whether or not a child has been baptised is used by some Catholic schools. That is still an objective measure. However, if the diocese guidance is that such criteria should not be used the school's admission criteria can be challenged.

I'm not a Catholic and rarely attend church but I'm pretty sure that you'd have to show some faith/feign faith for your child to take First Holy Communion; the most popular Catholic schools (London Oratory, Coloma etc) seem to require First Holy Communion for admission. Can you just rock up and ask for your baby to be baptised a Catholic if neither you nor the child's father are baptised? What if you don't have any Catholic friends/relations to act as godparents? I'd suggest that the very best/most popular Catholic schools do have a 'faith criteria'.

Can I just reiterate that there are never "faith criteria" - no school is allowed to have criteria that attempt to measure the parents' or child's faith. A non-believer is equally able to access the places in church schools by meeting the church attendance criteria.