Private school - extra costs

was that fees were going up way above the rate of inflation again.

That has been commonplace at most independent schools over the last decade. Even prep schools which don't offer any bursaries have had above inflation rises every year.
If people can't afford the fees or begrudge paying a few extra hundred pounds which support bursaries then they should opt for a different school.
You could have chosen a school which offers an academic scholarship if you were going to feel so aggrieved at not being given a monetary discount or enrichment lessons for free.
A school which charges £8000 per term for day fees is very expensive and isn't aimed at middle income families.
I live up North and having looked at fees (no boarding schools locally, so just day fees) even the best schools up here (Manchester grammar school and Withington girls school) charge much less than the fees you mention (£11k and £10k per year). I'm not sure how both schools fund all of their bursaries but I do know that both have separate bursary funds which they receive generous donations for from alumnae and trusts. I assume the difference in fee level between those schools and yours comes mainly down to land costs and building ownership rather than contributions to bursaries (as I can't see bursary contributions costing £14k per full fee paying student per year).

I said earlier it was boarding and day. Current fees are just below £8000 per term for day and £10,800 for boarding in the 6th form. I am sure you can do the sums! I am glad people contributing here have so much money they don't care what they pay. However there is an increasing problem at our old school, and many others, of people being unable to pay the fees and bad debts. Huge numbers of children receive a bursary of some description. The people who pay full fees are struggling. My DDs have now moved on as they are older. The only thing that led to unrest in the parent body, and gasps out loud on speech day when it was announced, was that fees were going up way above the rate of inflation again. You can only squeeze so much out of people. Numbers were dropping too. It is possibly not a sustainable model for the future. A lot of us have talented children. My DDs academic scholarship was worth nothing! Yet people with sports talent, music talent, drama talent etc got all the lessons for free even if the parents were rich. It was only the academic ones who got nothing. We paid up and didn't complain, but it was hardly fair.

It occurred to me last night that the question of sports tours might be more acute if the thing which the OP's DD excels at is sports. In that case I think it would definitely be reasonable to raise the issue with the school in advance - if she is a sports scholar, she would presumably be expected to participate in tours, so it would be only reasonable to warn the school that her family would not be able to fund them. TBH if they are prepared to offer a 100% bursary then I can't see an extra bit of funding for sports tours being a deal breaker.

I am another fee paying parent who thinks it is nine of my business if bursaries are funded out of fees. DC who are offered bursaries are offered them because they have something of value to bring to the school and could not do so otherwise. My DC, like all the others, will benefit from what they bring to the community.

Maybe not dependent on bursaries, although many use that to meet part of their charitable aims. They can also do things like loaning out their staff, lending use of their facilities etc but those things on their own are often not sufficient to satisfy that charities commission. They would have to provide a lot more in other areas if they stopped providing bursaries and it won't necessarily cost less.
Private schools are constantly under fire for not doing enough to justify their charitable status, can you imagine if they all suddenly stopped providing bursaries.

"They have to offer bursaries if they are to meet their charitable aims and satisfy the charities commission"

The latest tribunal found that this is not the case. They do have to satisfy the Charities Commission, but the provision of bursaries is neither necessary nor sufficient to do this.

"If they don't meet their charitable aims then they cannot continue to operate as a charity and will have to close the school and dispose all of the buildings and land (as that is what happens when a charity is no longer a charity)."

This is true, but not dependant solely on bursaries.

I have no idea if those places are funded from fees and I don't care; we knew what the fees were when we accepted the places and did our sums accordingly.

Yes, this is what I like to hear and I would hope is how most full fee paying parents feel.
At the end of the day if a school decides not to offer any new bursaries in a given year they are not going to suddenly reduce the amount of fees that they charge.
They have to offer bursaries if they are to meet their charitable aims and satisfy the charities commission. If they don't meet their charitable aims then they cannot continue to operate as a charity and will have to close the school and dispose all of the buildings and land (as that is what happens when a charity is no longer a charity). The school also receives tax breaks as it is a charity and whilst these don't add up to a great deal they add up to something.
millymolly the figures you give represent roughly 10% of fee income being used as bursary funding. How much are full fees at that school? As an example: if the fees are £12000 then you could argue that £1200 of those fees are being given directly to bursary students but around £300 of that is effectively reclaimed in tax breaks. So each full fee paying parent will be paying an additional £300 per term in order to support the bursary fund (although it isn't clear whether part of the bursary money comes from other sources).

What would happen if there was no bursary students?
. The school could lose its charitable status and be forced to close.
. The school could have a drop in results due to no longer attracting very bright children from poorer backgrounds who boost their results which in turn means the school attracts less full fee paying children (because nobody wants to pay for mediocre results) so the school has a huge drop in income and becomes no longer viable and is forced to close.

At the end of the day if people begrudge part of their fees being used to support bursary students then they have the option of not sending their child to a school where that would happen.

OPs child has won her right to a bursary offer and she should not be made to feel bad for accepting her offer because a minority of full fee paying parents dislike the way that bursaries might be funded.

Definitely talk to the school. Most are fairly clued up IME (after all, teachers don't earn a lot, generally, so they do appreciate the value of money). All the ones that we have looked at (including big names) have been at pains to point out that although there are loads of trips available, many DC go through school without doing any and are none the worse for it. In the case of sports trips, if they knew you couldn't afford it and couldn't support the cost themselves, I would expect them to be subtle enough to just not pick your DD in the first place.

Uniform would be the other one to check. Not all have second hand systems, but there may well be a possibility of a grant for the initial cost.

Very well done to your DD, and I do hope she can take it. I went through senior school (although not boarding) on substantial scholarship, never did extra trips and the like, and never nice felt or was made to feel like a second class citizen in any way.

If she is full boarding then she may havev to participate in all the weekend trips. These range from 5GBP to 40GBP.

If your having extra music lessons then maybe another 100 to 150 GBP a term.

Then there is the stationary costs which will not amount to much. Let's say 5O GBP.

uniform costs are mainly a one off but you do need to replace certain items. Socks mainly as they get lost with alarming regularity. Shoes are another thing...Astro boots, indoor and outdoor trainers. Plus the hockey stick that will get lost at least once a year.

Boarding wise there are no more hidden costs.

We also find that the school tends to have different options for the end of year trip..the MFL trip is never over 600 GBP. Which we find quite reasonable. To the local trip which comes in at 35 GBP.

Although we have found that the girls do tend to stick together. If one cannot go they all don't go. If one can not afford to the other girls will start pestering their parents for cash to help. So its not a big worry.

dilbert I just wanted to echo everything that Isithappening said. Very well done to your DD, she must have done really well to get such a great offer.
Don't worry about where the bursary fund comes from; the fact is it's there to help talented DC like your DD to access what the school has to offer. And as Isithappening said, the school will benefit from her presence.
I have 2 DC at different independent day schools and I am delighted that both schools offer a significant number of bursary places. I have no idea if those places are funded from fees and I don't care; we knew what the fees were when we accepted the places and did our sums accordingly.
I really hope you get the answers you need from the bursar and that your DD can go on to take up the place that she has earned.

Just to add: I have just looked up the accounts submitted by one of our schools on the Charities Commission web site. Fee income - £9.8m. Bursary, scholarship and grant expenditure £918,000. Not quite the sums you were hinting at Happygardening.

Both girls' schools my DDs went to, Happygardening, had less than 400 pupils. One was full boarding and the other had day pupils. There are not just bursaries for fees, there are free music lessons, subsidised school trips, free sports kit, the Principal's awards giving free this and that for a year. Nearly 25% of children got something while the rest of us (obviously not all of us) worked like stink to pay the fees, but got nothing for an academic scholarship. Both schools were established in the late 19th century by well meaning women. What they don't have is land to sell off, legacies of any size and fund raising goes into new buildings. You can only do so much with a small parent body and some parents have 2/3 children. I was just making the point that bursary money is often hard earned and it just seems people want more and even more. Maybe the very rich could directly fund the bursaries, as happens at Harrow!

I worked out that we save about £300/month not having to feed/fork out for trips into town/trips to the cinema/ice creams etc while our ds is at school.

dilbert I'm sure your daughter has worked very hard and deserves her place. Don't worry about where the bursary funds come from. Private schools benefit from bursary students. They meet their charitable requirements by giving means tested bursaries and they gain bright children who boost their results and hence make the school attractive to full fee paying parents. Bursaries are usually given out based on entrance exam performance as well as family income so your daughter has earned her offer.
Ring the bursar and ask them for a full breakdown of extras including meals, books, laundry, trips, insurance etc.
Don't forget that if your daughter is boarding you will save money on weekday meals and school travel so take those costs into account when you make your calculations.
I hope it works out for you.

I believe Eton does or used to use fee money to provide bursaries. I remember quite a few years ago a friend with a DS at Eton slightly moaning about it when she received a letter explaining they were going to do this.
But let's get this into perspective if you have 1000 full fee paying parents at currently paying 35k a year, and you ask them to pay an extra £100pa or £33.33 a term, which is let's face a piffling amount in the grand scheme of the things, their extras will easily fluctuate by more than that every term you raise £100 000 a year that nearly three sets if full fees covered.
I think Milly's point about boys schools is interesting being very old the big names boys schools are often asset rich, I know my DH's old school sold off a large lump of land on the edge of a London quite a few years ago houses of course have now been built on

I am very interested in some schools using fee income to provide bursaries. I had a look a round and found that the sutton trust have done a report on bursary provisions and it does seem that some school use fee I come but some use legacy funding and other funding streams.
www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/finalbursariesreportstaffs.pdf

As long as the school can fill all of its spaces and don't have any complaints about students being in receipt of bursaries or scholarships then I don't suppose it really matters. I like to think that many people would pay a little extra if they can easily afford to do so in order to help out a less financially fortunate child.

The schools we have looked at do indeed have bursary funds and don't take the money from other people's fees. This might not be the case across all schools or even the majority of schools but it is the case at the ones we looked at.
The high master at one school was very keen to tell us about the various fundraising activities that the school do each year in order to increase the money available in their bursary fund. That school also have a legacy donation page set up whereby they request people to leave monies in their wills for bursary funding or make an annual donation to the bursary fund.
We haven't looked at girls schools (don't have any girls) so you could be right about legacy funding being different in girls schools. We also didn't look at any newly established schools as all the schools nearby have been in existence for a very very long time and the ones we looked at for a few centuries.
The inflated fees at some schools to cover bursaries does make sense though because fees are much lower in my region then they are elsewhere so the difference could be parents being charged extra to cover bursary and scholarship discounts.

I am afraid you are not correct about where bursary money comes from Isithappening. At very many girls' schools, or more recently established schools, there is no big bank of investments and benefactors going back centuries. History will show you that these places are usually boys schools with a long history. They may be co-ed now, but it was often the men who were the benefactors and gave to the schools. Very many girls' schools are much newer and do not have a history of their alumni in positions of power and great wealth over the centuries. As a result it is only fee income, helped by donations from old girls, that provides for bursaries. Some parents really struggle to pay the inflated fees due to the need to cover bursaries. Fund raising is also mainly done from the existing parent body. Don't forget schools need new buildings and investment must be made here or you will not attract students.

I think people receiving bursaries usually think the money comes from some bursary God in the sky. It doesn't in a lot of schools. I think school trips are different in boarding schools, by the way, because often they go into a holiday period. We had a 2 week Autumn half term. If you are picked for the hockey team but can't go on the tour then someone else will have to find £3000 for you! However you cannot assume everyone else is rich enough to do that or is happy about paying extra. What happens if 3 bursary children are picked to go? In a boarding school, children make close friends with the girls/boys they board with so not going on some trips can mark you out as different. Would you have spent nothing on your child if they were at a state school?

I've not noticed that trip prices are much different to the prices that state school trips cost, and there aren't that many. Big expenses are music and dance lessons, but we were offered free music lessons as long as our son joined the orchestra.

All uniform is from the second hand shop and all stationery is included too, apart from pens etc

It does vary hugely. We have 2 at day school and fees include lunches, text books, breakfast club, public exam fees, any day trips, any internally provided learning support from the school's SEN staff, all lunch clubs and after school sports. Doesn't include residential trips, individual music lessons, after school care or uniform. Our extras bill is small.

Uniform is about £400-500 a year including sports kit. I buy nearly all of it from the secondhand sale at a cost of about £60 per year.

As a former scholarship and full bursary student myself, the school paid for my lunches (they weren't included in my old school's fees), gave my parents a uniform grant covering the cost of a complete new set each year and paid for any residentials they considered to be helpful to my subjects.

Definitely worth asking the bursar to clarify it.

Congratulations to your DD, she's obviously done very well.

Other parents are charged a bit extra to cover the bursary pupils ( same as happens for the actual fees, of course).

Most independent schools have separate funds for bursaries and don't charge full fee paying parents extra to cover bursary students. The money for the bursary fund comes from donors, benefactors, fundraising and investments.
Does your school not have a separate bursary fund?

We are on a substantial but not full bursary but uniform wasn't included but didn't get much change out of £1000, but I expect it to last at least 18 months / 2 years . Has a tuck account £30 per term, stationery account about £10/20 term, trips etc was about £40-100 per term last term was £180 in extras in total. so not too bad I pay my fees monthly so I pay an extra £50/75 PCM and it usually covers the extras Just ....

Only ever saw the odd pe skirt in our 2nd hand uniform shop! We must have had some grubby girls! Boarding school uniform is usually more than a day school because they will make you have more for laundry . The pullovers were unique to the school and the blazer was £120 ten years ago! Cannot imagine how you can buy a private school uniform for £200. Does this include a coat of any description? My DDs cloak at prep was £80!

My ds is at a private secondary on a substantial bursary. His kit costs £300 and uniform around £200. He didn't go on the ski trip (Yr 8) and didn't seem bothered.There are no compulsory extras, he gets lunches and books included and help towards all compulsory trips. TBH I would grab the opportunity. Could she go as a day pupil? If so they may adjust the bursary to include trips and uniform.

We pay between £300- £500 extra per term. But we do pay for every text book pencil pen piece of paper, some include this is the fees, some extras are also shampoo etc, and dry cleaning. Art materials were barged to us as well I think. Day trips/sporting trips are added onto the bill. We pay for Bupa schools insurance I think every term this is voluntary but useful and previous conditions are covered and includes things like private physio etc. Public exams are also billed to you. DS2'ss school seems to keeps trips away as cheap as possible I don't think we've ever paid more than £700 for a week away including flights and often food.
Uniform costs very much depends on your school, I now always buy top quality shoes, boarders often walk a lot, it's definitely worth the investment the last three pairs have lasted at least twice as long as the cheaper ones. Every schools my DS has ever attended has had a 2nd hand uniform shop, but you do need to be organised and get in early, it's definitely worth it especially for PE kit.