Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

School application from overseas (long, sorry!)

38 replies

itsveryyou · 09/02/2015 15:16

We’ve had problems with applying for a high school place for DS as we’re currently living overseas but will be back in our house before Year 7 starts in September. Before we moved in 2012, I contacted the C of E academy which we wanted to apply to, and they said in writing that we could apply from overseas, provided we could ‘prove’ property ownership, contract end dates, continuing church attendance etc – which we did.

We applied last September and were suddenly told by the school that the application wouldn’t be considered as we weren’t currently living in the catchment area – we were incredibly upset about this change of heart, and have been offered no explanation as to why their stance has changed. The LA says the school does have the ability to exercise discretion and ‘allow’ applications from overseas, but it seems they’re not willing to.

This particular school is oversubscribed and so if we wanted to try to get a place, we would have to wait and appeal when we got back to the UK, three weeks before school term starts (can’t come back any earlier due to work contract) – which is not enough time for an appeal to be launched and a decision made. We don’t want DS to be in a different school for a few weeks of Year 7, then have to transfer if the appeal is successful, nor do we want the stress of an appeal – but his ‘best’ friends will be going to the CofE academy, and it’s an excellent school in terms of results and pastoral care – so should we try, for his sake?

We’re inclined to go with our second choice school, which is non-faith and not oversubscribed, but still strong in terms of results/activities/pastoral, but it’s not the school most of DS’s friends will be going to. Do we owe it to him to appeal for a place at the CofE academy and hope he gets in, or do we go for the second choice, which it’s most likely he will get a place at and be able to start with everyone else in Sept?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Original poster
itsveryyou · 19/03/2015 16:10

I do see why the rules are in place prh47bridge (though I appreciate I keep whining about being hard done to!) and the way you explain it is really clear, which I appreciate, as it helps to focus on what I can and can't do in our particular set of circumstances.

I have a lot of emails from both the LA and the school which say we could apply, and we are currently considering whether to appeal.

Thanks again for taking the time to assist.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 19/03/2015 08:22

You may disagree with it but I'm afraid it is true.

Most LAs will accept applications from people moving into the area once they have exchanged contracts or can show evidence of a confirmed tenancy. Experience shows that accepting applications earlier in the process results in a significant number of applications relating to moves that subsequently fall through. In some cases parents even make speculative applications before they have made an offer on the house concerned. Whilst you are correct that some people living in the area won't take up their places, the LA is correct that accepting applications earlier in the process results in a higher risk of people moving into the area not taking up the place compared to people already living there.

Turning to your specific case, you have (or had) good grounds for appeal. If the original guidance was in writing (email, for example) you would have had clear evidence of the council saying one thing then doing another. That would be ample grounds to argue that the admission arrangements had not been administered correctly.

Original poster
itsveryyou · 19/03/2015 03:14

Thanks foodfairy! I agree that there has to be a better way to facilitate relocating families as it's so common these days. I was told by the retention bloke at the LA that there was a higher risk of us not taking up a place, compared to any family currently living in the catchment area. I disagree with this entirely, as so many people will take up a school place then move out of the area, for work or by choice. I get that there are rules in place, but I think the rules need changing to accommodate genuine cases of need. In our case, we were actually told to apply using our home UK address and then told we couldn't, once we'd applied. Eminently frustrating!

OP posts:
foodfairy · 19/03/2015 02:40

Think I misread that para, but it is confusing and muddled me further by council application asking on the form the date for when you are moving. Why would they need this if you have to be in situ to apply? People move all the time, there must be a better way to organise admissions to schools.

prh47bridge · 19/03/2015 00:01

The current Admissions Code says no such thing. Apart from the provisions relating to those on Crown Service all it says is that applicants from overseas must be dealt with in accordance with EU law or Home Office rules for non-EEA nationals and refers to DfE guidance. The DfE guidance simply states that children must not be refused places because of doubts over their immigration status and specifies which children are not entitled to a state-funded education.

foodfairy · 18/03/2015 23:18

It is a muddle. People here in Australia and friends in America get really confused when trying to explain situation in England to them. In both countries every house has a catchment school and that's the one you go to. They seem to have bigger schools which perhaps helps absorb extra children arriving.

What is odd is a bit in the uk school admissions code which says you musnt act prejudicially against kids applying from overseas which suggests it's technically possible??? Good luck op!

prh47bridge · 18/03/2015 09:42

No the Admissions Code has not changed. Those on Crown Service have the right to apply from a future address. For everyone else it is up to the LA to make the rules. Most will insist that you move back to the UK before they will accept an application but a few will accept earlier applications. Those that do won't necessarily allow you to apply from your future address but will accept your application before you live in the UK.

SavoyCabbage · 18/03/2015 07:24

I think that is still the case Fara. We are doing this right now and I've stopped worrying about it till we get there.

Farahilda · 18/03/2015 06:40

I didn't think that (unless you were Armed Forces etc) you could apply from a future address at all, and that that was the same whether it was a move in Britain or from overseas. Even when a future address was known. That if has to be where the child is living at applications deadline. That you have to be in UK.

Have latest changes to Admissions Code changed this?

Mutley77 · 18/03/2015 05:21

In our LA you can't apply until you are on the spot - we also have our home in the UK but no-one is interested unless we actually live there :)

We had actually applied for a primary school place for our youngest before leaving the UK (move abroad wasn't confirmed at the time of application) and the application was not even acknowledged. The LA checked council tax records and saw we were not living at the address so just decided that the application was not valid - without even contacting me!!! I was really concerned as at that stage we may have needed that place due to possibly returning during the school year, however we didn't so it all worked out but I was prepared to appeal. Probably wouldn't have got anywhere as the primary school was extremely oversubscribed...

BTW I think you will find itsveryyou that it isn't actually the primary school who make the decision about the place for your younger child, the LA manage all in year admissions generally. So I would definitely email the LA admissions as for all you/the school know, they could allocate that place to someone else at any time between now and your arrival (unless they have lots of spaces).

SavoyCabbage · 18/03/2015 04:26

The LEA I am applying to told me the same Food. We can't do anything until we are back and in our house again.

You can't apply for a place based on where you are going to be in the future. Which makes sense to me. Although it is very frustrating and just gives me something else to worry about.

Original poster
itsveryyou · 18/03/2015 02:00

prh47bridge I meant to add before, whilst we would be very happy to attend an appeal panel, we're a 12 hour flight away so popping back on the UK at short notice just isn't an option either cost or time wise, unless DH can wangle a work trip at the same time.

OP posts:
Original poster
itsveryyou · 17/03/2015 22:35

foodfairy it's a grey area I think. Our youngest DC will hopefully be returning to his old school and we've been speaking directly to the school to facilitate this...fingers crossed that place works out. Eldest DC is going into Year7 at high school so a totally different system. When we asked them back in 2012, the LA and school invited us to apply using our home address, but then back-tracked and said we couldn't apply. We have date of return, about to sign a contract of employment and will be booking flights in next few weeks, but still none of this seems to count. Now the LA is advising us to appeal, even though we haven't been assigned a school, but we think the school will refuse to recognize the appeal - so very confusing! I would speak to your LA and the schools you wish to apply to, and go from there. Good Luck!

OP posts:
foodfairy · 17/03/2015 22:24

I'm in a not dissimilar situation- living abroad and wanting to return to our house and get the kids into local schools.

However I though I wasn't allowed to apply for school places until the kids were actually in the country and we could produce council tax statements/utility bills (which is currently in our tenants name as house is rented) as evidence. Can I apply from overseas using home address once we have a firm return date (eg plane tickets booked) from abroad???

Original poster
itsveryyou · 17/03/2015 20:45

The council seems happy for us to appeal, however, our first choice school is a faith academy, and we need to contact them for the appeal form, and they have previously said that they won't consider an appeal until we are resident again in the UK, so I'm unclear if an appeal would even be heard...what are your thoughts? It may be possible that DH could be back in the UK for an appeal, as he travels back a lot for work. Otherwise, we could send someone to represent us, I suppose.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 17/03/2015 20:08

If the council is happy for you to appeal now you should go ahead. Ideally you need to arrange to be in the UK when the appeal hearing takes place. If you can't manage it the panel will decide on the basis of your written submission but it is always best to present your case in person if you can.

Original poster
itsveryyou · 17/03/2015 17:55

Thanks prh47bridge. So I guess we go ahead and appeal now, and see what happens? Honestly we'd be really happy with a place either of our top two preferences, we just would like a place for DS so we can plan accordingly and make the transition as smooth as possible for him!

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 17/03/2015 17:47

You are not appealing against anything. You are appealing for a place at your preferred schools. You appeal for each school individually. If the appeal panel decides in your favour you will get a place at that school immediately without having to wait until you reach the head of the waiting list. You won't be able to argue that a mistake has been made but you can still make a case that your son will be disadvantaged if he goes to the allocated school (when you get one) rather than the appeal school. That can't be about the relative standards of the schools - no matter how rubbish the allocated school is that doesn't give a case for a successful appeal. It has to be about things your preferred school can offer your son that are missing from the allocated school.

Original poster
itsveryyou · 17/03/2015 16:53

Hi, me again! I wondered if any of the Appeals experts out there could advise? Today I got this email from the LA, replying to one in which I asked if we could still put DS's name on waiting lists for our preferred schools. Kind of confused about the 'appeal' option as we haven't been offered a place, so we're not sure what we're appealing against! Should we appeal? How would we be best to approach this? Thanks for any help, am up to my armpits with confusion here!

""Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Unfortunately as you are not yet in the country we won't be able to issue you a letter, however you will still be able to appeal and request to go on the reserve list for the schools you requested. I have attached all the details you need – ignore the Friday 13th deadline for the reserve list we will still accept your request.""

OP posts:
mummytime · 12/02/2015 23:00

LAs have been known to employ PIs to check up on addresses.

Even in very over subscribed schools students have got places when they have moved into the area, in the summer term, or even on appeal early in the autumn.
My DDs school even had a student start from overseas at the beginning of year 11 (they have a special timetable and are doing a reduced load of GCSEs).

Original poster
itsveryyou · 12/02/2015 22:08

mummytime I know, we wouldn't have lied about our location, but sometimes one wonders about whether everyone is so honest..!

mygrandchildren we also have our home, which we're returning to, but still to no avail. I think our second preference school will be the way forward as they're not oversubscribed and DS will be able to start along with everyone else, all being well. Our younger DS will slot back into his former class at primary school, where the head teacher has been very supportive and accommodating with our particular circumstances.

Thanks for your messages!

OP posts:
mygrandchildrenrock · 12/02/2015 21:30

We lived abroad and moved back to the UK at the end of Y7. I did still have a house in the UK so maybe that made a difference, in that we had a UK address. I managed to sort a secondary school and a primary school out from overseas. It was all done over the phone and via emails. I didn't get my son into our first choice school and I did an appeal from abroad. I paid a solicitor to represent us, didn't have to but thought it best. The appeal failed!
We came back to the UK at the very end of August and everyone started work and school 3 or 4 days later, both children were able to look round their school the last day of the holidays when both Headteachers were in working and showed them round, we bought uniforms on that day. I couldn't even do that because I was looking round my new school!
Good luck with it all.

mummytime · 12/02/2015 21:27

You wouldn't have done better not to mention being overseas.

If they had found out you had been untruthful on your application - such as evidence someone else was living in your house at the time etc. etc. Your DC could have got a place, only to have it withdrawn immediately and them having to leave the school - even once they had started in the autumn.

Original poster
itsveryyou · 12/02/2015 02:27

Sound advice, thank you! I don't have much faith in the LA at this stage, having been given such conflicting and seemingly incorrect info, but you're right, it's worth a call to chat through where we are with regards to the process.

A few months ago, a friend of mine who's a parent at our preferred school was in the school office for something, and mentioned she had a friend applying from abroad, but didn't mention my name. The admissions assistant then took it upon herself, out of the blue, to discuss my son's application with my friend, saying there wouldn't be a problem with him being allocated a place!! It's all a huge mess to be honest, and I begin to wonder if we'd have been better keeping quiet in the first place and not mention being overseas...but then we're honest so would never do that, and we were led to believe that the system might support us.

Thanks for listening x

OP posts:
admission · 11/02/2015 22:37

I believe that you need to contact the LA,who are responsible for the number crunching on all allocations, no matter who has admission responsibility. You need to get them to confirm before the 1st March (when places will be allocated) that as an on-time application your application will be considered from the address abroad. You have told them the UK address and when you will be resident and therefore there is no reason why they should not be considering your application from the non-UK address, especially given the poor advice offered by both school and LA about using the UK address.

A very small chance you will get a place at the preferred school but you never know. At the very least it gives you the opportunity to appeal and show the appeal panel that you were promised in writing that the UK address would be acceptable. If you do not sort this now, then you will end up chasing your tail for ages, as after 1st March all hell breaks loose with all those other people who did not get their first preference wanting what they cannot all have.

Swipe left for the next trending thread