St Paul's Girls' School spgs

You can look up a private school's charity commission annual statement and it will often tell you how many bursaries have been awarded and how much money was forgiven/spent on those. After all, they are a charity with the aim of education! This should allow you to compare how "active" each schools is.

SPGS - "Today, 72 Paulinas receive financial assistance. This is about 10 per cent of our school population and our aim, over time, is to increase that figure to 20 per cent."

G&L - in 2013 58 girls received bursaries amounting to 6.8% of gross fees of the school

LU - In 2013 123 pupils received bursaries on the school roll (9.5%). 81 were 100% bursaries and 15 were 75%+ bursaries. This is a huge improvement as in 2003 there were only 10 bursaries.

So in West London, from these 3 schools alone there are over 200 kids on bursaries. Clearly there could always be more, but that's not as bad as many people ignorantly claim.

Jeanne16 - thank you, that is very reassuring. And yes, I fully agree on your last point. I will have to borrow money from 2 banks to pay the school fees from September but I did not apply for a bursary because I can get by without, while others can't. I have only one child (luckily, in this respect) and choose to spend most of what I earn on her, and I am perfectly happy with that choice. After all, it gives all the long hours I spend at work a meaningful purpose!

Whether or not it should be the Government's purse providing adequate education is a different question; I (now) opt out of the state system so it is my choice to pay. I would be (much) happier not having to pay but the differential in house prices in good state school catchment areas (plus cost of moving) seem to be equal to private school fees....

One more question to Jeanne16: in your experience, do pupils know who receives a bursary? Do teachers (other than the head and bursar) know? If so, has that ever lead to any problems? I have friends who did not apply for private schools although their dc would most likely get in and they are eligible for a bursary, because of the perceived social divide. That seems to me a more worrying barrier.

I teach at a London private school and I can tell you that all private schools now have a number of pupils on 100% means tested bursaries. When there is a school trip, the school charges other parents slightly more to cover the cost of the trip for the bursary pupils, although the parents are not told this is happening.

So now fee paying parents are paying for their own children's fees, plus extra for the bursary pupils plus their taxes for state places they are not using! Perhaps you should be thanking them rather than pillaring them all the time.

Yes - sorry guys. Trying to get back on track, but not ignoring social mobility, here is a question to all: of those "elite" London private day schools, which do you consider is most inclusive in terms of percentage of bursaries? How does SPGS do compared with, say, Godolphin? And is there a trend?

I do think this is an indicator not only of social responsibility, but also on how cohesion and tolerance are promoted among the pupils. DD currently attends a very "mixed" state primary which has some very wealthy children as well as some from local council estates, and it is to the credit of the school that there is a very inclusive atmosphere. Showing off is not tolerated, school trips are subsidised and parents' donations to the (large) PTA fund are strictly anonymous. This of course only works within school gates and children ARE aware of each others' backgrounds, BUT they have formed close friendships across social divides and are actively encouraged to look out for each other.

My worry is that a uniform-free place like SPGS, with some very wealthy families, will make poorer students feel less at home. What e.g. happens if a bursary recipient can't pay for a school trip? Is everything means-tested? Will the school really prop up families in cases of job loss (as is says on the website)? Do you know if any girls have left because of financial difficulties? Please feel free to dm me if you would rather not discuss in a public forum.

..... [the age old debate really has hijacked this thread now .... soz OP] ....

minifingers

I also like to use the "thought experiment" of how things would be if all "selective schools" were banished. Those that could afford private schooling would now get free education, saving £200,000+ per child. There advantages in life - wealth and connections to future employment would not be diminished, as their parents network is responsible for this.

If you look at other countries with no or less of a private school system you still find a thriving economic elite. You'd achieve very little in terms of social mobility or redistribution of wealth. All you've done is put taxes up and increase the burden on comprehensives.

Minifingers - I agree entirely that we should pay more taxes for more investment in the state sector. Provided that is where our taxes go.. But this is not the private schools' fault, and paying a private school is not perpetuating an unfair system nor is it defending it. The existence of private schools in some countries (unknown in others) is a symptom, not a cause.

It is the government which holds the key to keep or reform this system, not the private sector which is merely filling a gaping hole. By paying a private school I don't weaken the state system, I (may) strengthen my dd's potential. With that potential comes social responsibility to others less fortunate. And I am happy to explain that to her.

"Or perhaps that's the real issue, state schools standards needing to be better for everyone?"

I agree.

Lets raise taxes to pay for a doubling of the amount of money to be spent on state educated children, so it approaches that currently spent on your average privately educated child.

Because you don't expect state schools to provide an equivalent education for half the amount of money do you?

And maybe we can spread the really difficult to teach children fairly across the educational spectrum, rather than concentrating them in certain schools?

"Wanting the best for your own children is not something parents should apologise for."

No - but paying into and defending an unfair system that perpetuates both privilege and disadvantage, IS something to apologise for.

The bottom line is that adults are very happy to defend the 'life is unfair but so what if I'm winning' to each other. Most of you would find it incredibly embarrassing and shaming to try to explain and justify the system to a child - and you should be able to, because it's children who are most affected by it.

Oh and BTW, you say faith selection is not as unfair as private selection. I disagree. Faith schools represent a much larger percentage of the education system and ask taxpayers to pay. Seems more unfair to me.

Also, why do you think it's so unfair to deny private schools to some/many students? Is it because you think they are "better" than state schools in some way ..... bit of an insult to state schools I'd suggest. Or perhaps that's the real issue, state schools standards needing to be better for everyone?

Love to explain and do to my kids. It's called politics. It's fascinating and is an area where many are convinced there is a "right" and a "wrong". I'll teach them politics, not partisan opinions, then they can make up their own mind - perhaps starting with why every other kids in their state primary has an iPad but they don't. "That's just not fair" I hear them cry .... "get used to it", I'm tempted to say.

Wanting the best for your own children is not something parents should apologise for.

I grew up in a single parent household with very little money and no kind of "privilege", but I went to a state school in Germany, where private schools didn't exist at that time and received bursaries for uni and eventually a scholarship for Harvard. I may have been lucky that my mum believed in me, but other than that I had no "privilege" and no financial cushion, I worked throughout uni and have worked ever since.

Now a single mum myself, I choose to pay a very large proportion of my income for a private secondary for my daughter because I am convinced that the state school alternatives will not give her the same opportunities I had. And yes: of course this is a sad state of affairs which perpetuates existing elites and ever increases the gap between rich and poor. We all know that. But the way to change this is not to lambast the private sector, or those who opt for it so that their children can have the best chance in life. The way to change this is to vote for a government that will invest our tax in a better state system.

mini if I were explaining what is unfair and not acceptable to my DCs I would be focussing on the extreme disparity between children in this country and those in other countries without access to free healthcare, education and living in a war zone. Life is unfair but it is often said in various threads by parents with DCs in state schools that private education is a waste of money particularly when there is a parent such as yourself who cares about education.

"That is, of course, the classic debate about selective schools in the UK. Is it unfair on other children if"

Unfairness in relation to access to the more successful state schools is always smugly flourished at anyone objecting to the existence of private schooling and its distortion of our meritocracy, as though it provides a counter argument.

It doesn't. Discrimination by expensive catchment is unfair and discrimination by faith is unfair. The existence of the 11+ as a system of selection is unfair. But none is quite as unfair as selection according to parental income. Poor kids do still get into the most popular state schools, and faith schools, and grammar schools. However, unless they are astonishingly clever or talented and can get a rare full scholarship, or a 100% bursary (how many of those exist?) they will not get a sniff of the inside of a private school (except when they are having a day's visit as a charity case - like with our local gloriously equipped private school who invites the kids from my children's school for a single day's activities once a year, just so they can see what they're missing).

"There are choices, liberty and freedom to dispose of wealth as private individuals see fit, along with a private sector in education and health."

Yes - explain that without blushing to my 11 year old. Explain why it's acceptable to create and sustain a system which results in unfairness in relation to job opportunities and life chances, on the basis that adults must be free to spend their money how they wish.

Stressed - thank you, that sounds really "quirky" in a good way. Tolerance of "quirkiness" and acceptance of differences is not just important for the "quirky" or the nerd, but also for the "cool" majority. I was "different" and brutally bullied because of it, and can already see signs in dd trying to suppress her "quirkiness" to blend in. Hopefully she can feel she can be both different and fit in at the same time.

Really sorry to hear your dd was accosted at a bus stop - that's sad (and reinforces the point about tolerance!) but I hope she is still happy at SPGS and will be throughout her time there.

Agreed mn164.

It was the superiority comment which got to me.

Intrepid fox- quirky always seems to be attributed to spgs and as someone else mentioned thats really open ended. The girls in dds form are all quite different but accepting and supportive of individuals interests and pursuits. My Dd spends lunchtime at dissecton and literary society whilst her friends are all sporty but they will all have lunch together, It really does cater for and encourages broad spectrum of personalities and interests. I wouldnt worry about your daughter not fitting in- the school does select girls who will get the most from the school.
My personal view is that the girls are articulate and openminded snd independant thinkers.
Sadly my dd is aware she is prejudged by parents of non spgs having been acosted st a bus stop and grilled about the school.
I wouldnt hesitate to say sccept if yr dds school think its the right environment and yr dd is offerred a place .
TBH at the moment I keep thinking its too good to be true!

I think all countries have more privileged sectors than others, it's just in the UK education is a clear divisor which distracts from other issues.

Snapple

That is, of course, the classic debate about selective schools in the UK. Is it unfair on other children if;

• I have enough God points to attend an excellent but exclusive Catholic school

• I live in an area where house prices are high because it's inside a small catchment area from a great state school

• I have a child that has passed the 11+ to a grammar school

• I have a child that has passed an 11+ and also qualify for a bursary to a private school or have grandparents who will pay the fees

• I got into the excellent state school by lottery but my neighbour didn't

• I send my daughter to a great girls school but your son can't go

There are choices, liberty and freedom to dispose of wealth as private individuals see fit, along with a private sector in education and health.

Not very specific to SPGS I think......

Yes I found the comment about the super bitchy girl off putting especially when the op next states (and this it with my favourite comment) " they know they got into the school for a reason and there is no reason to prove their superiority to anyone"

To me it reads that you are sending tour child to school to gain the superior advantages that private schools provide. Well done you. You are buying her advantages in her life over other children. I find great issue with people having their destiny because of testing at 10 or 11. I am not from the uk but I do think it is divisive for society as a whole over here.

Your daughter did not get in because of her own merits, you supported her and have the money and the time and the inclination to do so. That is what this is about.

You want her to have the privilege and assumed superiority over others.

Mmm a tough question Intrepid because a) I wouldn't want to say that other schools aren't as good at this as Spgs as I have no comparison data and b) I can't find a way to answer it which doesn't begin to sound patronising to girls I might designate as quirky - whatever that means. My quirky might be your boring!

But what I can say is it's a big school - 110 girls per year - and they seem to encompass a huge range from alpha partying girls to geeky girls to quiet girls to studious girls to girls with AS to musical girls to actress girls to sporty girls....and they all seem very accepting of each other and open to appreciating each other's talents in a very rounded way. They will work together across all those boundaries to do things as a team - so my DD who is probably on the quiet studious side for example did a couple of things over the last year in a team (being deliberately vague to protect her identity) with girls who are of a huge variety - from the geeky to the alpha - what brought them together was their passion for the thing they are doing. I was impressed by their openness and acceptance of all sorts of girls and by how much they loved working together on a shared goal - even if they weren't going to head off to spend Saturday night together.

So I guess I am saying the school and the girls seem to me to be very open to all sorts and that all sorts of girls can find the thing that stimulates them there and be noticed for what she is good at. And teachers are good at drawing people towards additional opportunities to reflect their interests.

Ultimately your acid test is if your dd is offered a place as that will show the school is comfortable that she will be happy there. And from what you said I don't think she is out of normal range for Spgs!

"reading", not "ready"..

Talking of quirkiness: I would be interested in hearing from SPGS parents if they think SPGS really does encourage individuality (as they say they do) and if so, in what way. Does anyone have a comparison with, say, Godolphin or Latymer Upper? What (if anything) makes SPGS more quirky??

DD is a self-declared nerd with an idiosyncratic sense of fashion (strictly nothing remotely smart or ironed) and dry sense of humour, went to the interview with a beanie and told them she is terrible at team sports but likes ready gory crime novels (-: Otherwise happy and relaxed. So I guess if they offer her a place they must have a certain preference for quirkiness..

Btw: she didn't try this trick at other schools' interviews (-:

TBH if I had a DD who was drawn to it because of quirkiness and the location was convenient I would send her there. From seeing the alumini of certain girls' schools there are not that many who have benefited from a system promoting originality and flexibility in learning.

Summerends: agree entirely. The dilemma is whether to risk sending your child to an environment that may be wrong for her, but have a chance to change it, or opt out and send her to another school with a "better" social environment which may otherwise not be ideal (at which point the "arrogant" school will be left to the "arrogant" cohort).

DD loved SPGS because of its perceived "quirkiness" and the teachers she met there, it's very near our home and her teachers (state Primary) said she'd do well there because she needs to have a challenge. I have not spoken to her about my doubts re: reputation and am secretly hoping she won't get an offer - sad but true.

intrepidfox I would agree that it is certain peer groups and their parents rather than the staff of a school that promote such attitudes and about it being a 'self fulfilling prophecy'. As victimof, I and others said earlier in the thread tendencies to arrogance in such schools can be counteracted by parents such as yourself.