St Paul's Girls' School spgs

Thanks for the updated numbers, MN164. These confirm quite starkly that SPGS is offering an increasingly luxurious education, which will soon be affordable only by a super rich elite and by a smattering of families privileged to receive bursaries.

Average staff costs have increased by 15% in 5 years while the fees have gone up by 37%. Teachers are being priced out of sending their own DC to these elite schools. I don't know what the staff discounts are at SPGS, Needmoresleep, but I believe they are generally around one third of full fees in London schools. If you were a teacher at SPGS, that would mean the fees you would pay, after the discount, would be about the same amount as you would pay at GDST and some other London girls' schools without any such discount. The difference is closer to two family holidays than one.

The stats show that no additional bursaries were awarded in 2014. There have only been 14 additional bursaries in the last 5 years, that's 2.8 pa. At that rate, it will take 28 years to reach 20% of the school roll. The numbers speak for themselves: the school does not walk its talk on diversity and inclusiveness.

You can see the school's building plans on its website: the home page takes you to them. It's called "Project Ambition" and it explains that the most important reason for the new buildings is to address "stress and anxiety", which "was [sic] highlighted as a key issue" in a recent survey of staff, parents and pupils. What of parents' stress and anxiety in coping with astronomical annual fee hikes?

OP was right to accentuate the positive about SPGS and to counter some myths about it. However, the school's accounts show where it is heading now and it's a million miles away from the world of salaried middle class professionals. It must be a planet where, if other threads are to believed, people with "trust funds", "share options" and "financial advisers" play snowplough dodgems. The Charity Commission won't like it.

I know nothing of the SW London schools and reputations but have to say your post is fantastic. People should read it and apply it to whatever school they are down treading.

And as for Eton. Whe I was was younger I worked for a company that took children for residential. High proportion were london Indi pupils - many Eton boys. They were the politest teenage boys I've ever met in my life. I was there to supervise and look after them - except (old fashioned as it may be!) they were very protective of me and held doors, offered to get me coffee at breakfast etc. I expect many of them are wonderful fathers and husbands now

It happens everywhere though. I get it with my DS who has SN, comments about doing level 6 maths is no major deal when they find out he is doing it. However level 6 is a massive deal when their dcs are doing it in literacy - of course because my DS is way behind in that!

The Worshipful Company of Mercers funded the £75m+ building works at the boys school. Wouldn't they do the same for the girls school?

Springisontheway- huge building project lasting a couple of years starts in Sept to redevelop and expand the school facilities- imagine that is coming from the pot.

For a charity there are different kinds of cash. Some might be restricted for certain purposes (bursaries or other commitments), perhaps set at the time of donation by the donor.

They will have a policy of having a certain number of months costs at hand. Their biggest overhead is salary. So long as they can pay next month's salaries, rates and utilities they're in pretty good shape, especially as their income is rock solid (paid in advance, termly, on direct debit, very wealthy customers so credit risk is low). At the risk of being non-prudent (?) they might need to hold £1m in cash for that. Frankly, they could easily have a bank facility to cover this and not hold a cash pile at all for such outflows.

In that context, even is there is a good chunk of "restricted use" cash, £14m is one hell of a gold chest.

All this said, it's up to the trustees to decide what to "charge" parents and what to spend money on, so long as it's in keeping their "charitable objectives". There isn't anything to "regulate" them or to counter-act the inflation busting fee rises and bursting coffers. It's a private school and Ofsted and the DoE can't really touch them without a major policy change.

So what do you think they are stock piling the cash for MN164?

Genuine question. How do they count discounts to children of staff members? If I were starting again, I would consider retraining as a teacher after DC were born and then apply for every job going at Alleyns or Latymer U. Staff discount for both DC from prep all the way through. Life would have been a lot easier.

When DD was going through 11+ one wise mother (two older DC then one much younger) put it well. Putney (and other GDST) are cheaper by the equivalent of a family holiday. Are other schools so much better that it is worth giving this up.

Here's the 2014 numbers update (vs 2010, five years). They added another £3m to cash in the last year whilst debts remained stable and low. The bursary fund continues to grow but the amount spent and numbers of bursaries given does not ..... :

Income
£17.5m vs £13.0m

Costs
£15.5m vs £11.7m

Staff costs (included in above)
£9.5m vs £7.4m

Staff numbers
174 vs 153

Average staff cost (salary, benefits, pension etc)
£55k vs £48k

Cash
£14m vs £7m

Means test bursaries on the roll
72 girls vs 58 girls (up 24%)

Total school roll
747 vs 720

Thanks for these numbers, MN164, and for your analysis.

It's clear that SPGS's fee hikes, which are rapidly excluding the salaried middle class (if not those with bonuses, share options, "little inheritances" and other such exotica spoken of on other current threads), are being spent on making the school ever more luxurious for the sliver of the super rich who haven't yet been priced out. You can see that in the teacher/pupil ratio: 11 more teachers/21 more pupils.

72 on bursaries out of 741 on the roll. That's fewer than 10%. A long way to go. Meanwhile bursary pupils will find there will be on average just two of them in any class of 20 (if class sizes even get that big) with everybody else being super rich. A strange polarised community is being built there and in similarly exclusive schools in London. It's a shame.

MN164,

So, the staff numbers went up from 153 to 163 (up 6.5%), total school roll went up from 720 to 741 (up 3%), while the number of bursaries went up from 58 to 72 (up 24%). That does sound like number of bursaries went up faster than either staff or total school roll.

Assuming, in the absence of information, that the number of bursaries were equally distributed ( I agree there is a potential fallacy there), average number of bursaries per year in the year to Aug 2010 was 8.285 (58/7 year groups), while the average number of bursaries in the year to Aug 2013 was 10.285 (72 / 7 year groups). This can potentially imply that the average number of bursaries for the three years from Aug 2010 to Aug 2013 was 12.93 ( (710.285-48.285)/3) which indicates an increase of 56% (12.93/8.285) in the number of bursaries per year.

Agree 12.93 per year (12%) is still far from stated(??) target of 20%.

For what its worth you can get the schools accounts on the Charities Commission website and see the finances over the last 4 years.

SPGS page

Comparisons between year to Aug 2010 and Aug 2013 (i.e. latest 4 years available):

Income
£16.3m vs £13.0m (up 25%)

Costs
£14.8m vs £11.7m (up 26%)

Staff costs (included in above)
£8.8m vs £7.4m (up 19%)

Staff numbers
163 vs 153 (of which increase 11 where teaching staff)

Average staff cost (salary, benefits, pension etc)
£52k vs £48k (up 8%)

Cash
£11m vs £7m (up 57%)

Means test bursaries on the roll
72 girls vs 58 girls (up 24%)

Total school roll
741 vs 720

There are lots of ways of looking at this but what is clear is they've invested in more staff (11 more teaching staff) and modestly increased their bursaries.

However, they have also increased the number of students a little and the fees a lot leaving them with about £1m more cash in the bank per year (£4m over 4 years).

I suspect the talk of capital investment is overblown as the Mercers would step up to that (as they have for the Boys school). I do spy a bit of a battle with a deficit in the defined benefit pension scheme (gold dust if you have one) but that isn't that big a deal.

The argument that higher fees will pay for more bursaries to reach 20% on bursaries doesn't seem to have materialised despite the flush coffers.

Let's see what the 2014 accounts will show ...... another bumper rise is income, flat costs, cash pile growing? Or will they start giving out those bursaries to make up for the alienation of many parents/girls that can't afford them any more?

I love numbers and facts .... sorry.

We are in a completely different city (Paris) but I just wanted to reiterate that a school's overall stellar exam grades doesn't mean that your own DC won't do as well or better in a school with a more mixed intake. My DSSs' school does a brilliant job of taking every DC to its full potential. It selects on personal qualities as much as on academic attainment which means there is a good supportive environment, good behaviour and no drugs/alcohol/eating disorders/ridiculous consumer competition.

Those are exactly our thoughts. We are comparatively well off but not super rich and can't happily sign off that much money potentially rising at a rate of 40%. It doesn't align with my financial principles. Just to be clear I'm not criticising the school or any families who go there, I'm sure it's an amazing school! DD is pleased to be offered a place but not bothered by it. We are also waiting to hear from Tiffin.

The West London private schools are all lovely, I think mothers of only girls forget how lucky we/they are to have such a large number of fantastic schools. Being close to the school probably makes more difference than anything as then the pupil can take part in all they have to offer and won't have an energy sapping commute. With dd2 she didn't even sit schools which weren't a very easy journey.

My daughter attended Putney High rather than SPGS for that exact reason. The GDST schools offer far better value for money. She got all A*s, and most of her friends also got strings of them. She was also very happy there, played sport, went on trips, made good friends, so I am very happy with the decision we made.

Bias - the better results at SPGS are a direct reflection of the intake - the GDST schools will have a slightly broader ability range hence the more variable results

But I should imagine that your dd will be capable of getting a string of A*s (or whatever the equivalent is by the time she takes them) wherever she goes so you then have to decide if the extra several thousand pounds a year is worth it. Will the rest of her school experience be so much better at SPGS that it would justify the difference?

Even more difficult to justify in excess of £30k in the 7th year after SPGS's amazing inflation busting fee rises year after year. The GDST schools (as well as JAGS, CLSG and some others) know their parents' constraints and are keen to keep fee rises low as well as offering bursaries, thereby maintaining a healthy social mix.

SPGS has squeezed the middle out and it's waving goodbye now. It's a real shame.

We got an offer from SPGS but are balking at the fees! DH and I are two working professionals but don't feel £21000/year for the next 7 years can be justified to ourselves. DD also has a 20% scholarship from a GDST school so we will probably go there. GCSE results at SPGS are definitely better but it's such a lot of money.

Commiserations of the very mildest sort to miss and the fox: your DDs have done really well and will not miss out on SPGS. Impressed by music scholarship - fantastic achievement!

Check what the t&c are for accepting a music scholarship, what is the actual benefit. G&L music scholarships are v gd iirc, 40% discount on all fees but if your dd also likes acting/sport accepting the music scholarship may restrict her from taking up new opportunities. Or if she lives for music it won't matter at all.

Take the one with the scholarship!

theintrepid and others: you will find plenty of Latymer Upper, some G&L and perhaps some City discussion partners on the excellent SW/W thread (Part 2)

Extremely well done to your DD!

MissW I was at a sports tournament recently & the NLCS coach was very good with her team, from that snapshot I'd be happy.

Good luck to all your daughters with their new schools

Same here - sadly DD did not get an offer from SPGS, after all the support from great SPGS mums alumni and students I feel a bit disappointed. But she got offers from G+L, CLSG + LU and a music scholarship, so we are still very lucky and spoilt for choice. Some of the concerns and considerations in this thread apply equally to those schools, so I am happy I followed it and feel better equipped to help DD make the right choice. So thank you very much to everyone on this thread, and (as promised) I will point SPGS candidates to this thread and tell them how good my impression was.

Now: anyone interested in a new G+D / LU / CLSG thread?

No more following this thread. DD didnt get spgs but happy that she got nlcs. No dilemma's at all today and for the rest of the life too . Sometimes no choice is better than spoilt for choice !!