GCSE options / is Business Studies viewed as a 'soft' / easy subject or well respected these days?

There are some accounting degrees which are clearly superb. most, sadly, aren't. The ones that shine like good deeds in a wicked world are those that give their students depth (for example making them take language or philosophy modules as well as yer basic IFRS, Mann Acc, MAFM type stuff).

Returning to the main point - business studies may or may not be difficult at GCSE and A level. It is however irrelevant since you don't need either qualification to even do an accounting or business degree let alone follow a business career. It's a waste of time because you won't be in any way enriched or advantaged by following the course. If you've got a GCSE slot to spare and it's more attractive to you than the alternatives then by all means do it so long as you aren't not doing something valuable (eg a MFL or a humanity like history or geography) to facilitate doing business studies. But do it with your eyes open. It might be interesting, it might be fun, but it's not going to help you in any material way other than by giving you another grade on your certificate.

R Euphoria
I had some tenants - admittedly from a 9th tier University - who were doing "Business and Management" degrees.

What an effing waste of taxpayer funds their studies were turning out to be.
They'd have been better getting out and getting temping and then doing day release appropriate training.

I'm on several working parties looking at this issue at the moment. Nationally and internationally.
Cool.
Do not let them break the link between "learning" and "doing"
as with accounts - and much of business - you only really have a clue after about 5 years of "doing"

Big firms are opposed to accounting and business studies A levels. They are a bit more on the fence about accounting degrees - this is partly because of EU recognition regs. There are some accounting degrees that are better thought of than others, due to breadth of content (and rigour of entry requirements). I'm on several working parties looking at this issue at the moment. Nationally and internationally.

dodo3
You do realise that many business owners - ie self employed builders and the like - do not have, or care about, degrees.
The certificates they value - and that get them higher rates of pay - are their C&G3's

Dodo and your opinion is based on what experience/expertise?

For my accountancy exams,
having a BSc and Maths A Level gave me exemption for 4 papers.
If I'd had an accountancy degree I'd have had exemption of 5 papers.

Big firms do not like Accounting A level and degree : because it implies people do not have the breadth of analytical skills that make a good accountant.

At a tres posh business consulting firm I did some work for, the top bods all had engineering degrees : as it gave them the right skill set

I meant to say for GCSE not A level

Talking, having some basic knowledge of how to run or how a business runs is a good skill in my opinion.

BS is much more useful as a life skill than say history, again IMO

SG29 no it's exactly the same for accountancy. Having BS GCSE or A level is absolutely no advantage and may be a disadvantage if other subjects are missing.

Not having it doesn't close doors at any level.

Having spent years hiring and training business people, I would second this. Business and economics taken at the high school level will not be any kind of significant preparation for taking these at degree level, and to be honest taking these at degree level are not really much preparation for doing them in real life the graduates need the same amount of training regardless of whether the-y have a business degree or not, and in fact some of the social science degrees in practice give them much better preparation, and are considered very attractive by employers.

( N.b. I'm from a management and marketing background, for people doing accountancy type fields it may be different.)

Of course there's no harm in taking the subjects alongside the full range of standard academic classes, including foreign languages if practical (the discouragement of ongoing foreign language study is a definite disadvantage for British versus EU graduates). If business is what the student is interested in, it will help keep him motivated, and underline that there is a "real world" at the end of all this academic study. It can also, as cricket balls said, assist pupils in deciding their future paths - actually very important.

But I would say this is the main advantage of the class, rather than provision of any actual help in getting on in this area in the future.

dodo3
I'm not sure how that is relevant.

Most of those small businesses employ only members of one family, are lifestyle businesses and have no business qualifications within the organisation.
They pay people like me to do that.

The number of sole traders dwarfs all other forms of business.

At the start of 2014 5.2 million small businesses accounted
for 48% (12.1 million) of UK private sector employment.

The combined annual turnover of small businesses is £1.2
trillion, 33% of private sector turnover.

There were 31,000 medium-sized businesses at the start of
2014. These businesses had an annual turnover of £480
billion and employed 3.1 million people.

Thank you cricket

Someone earlier said that more could be of benefit to someone in the business world, for example, drama, textiles, and photography

Whilst I understand the point, the GCSE choices are down to the children, as parents we advised ds1 but he does not like subjects like that, he doesn't like language (although grunting seems to be quite universal) and so he would have spent two years studying other subjects he hates and potentially (likely) getting a bad grade in them

He wants to do law and at the moment, specialise in employment law (god knows why!!!) and of the choices the SCHOOL gave he really fancied the idea of business studies

Roguedad you could also argue that a DC would be better off learning a MFL by spending time in the country speaking it. Certainly that would result in more competence than the GCSE syllabus.
The reality is that DCs are in school for two thirds of the year and classroom learning of BS or PE or theatre studies or whatever may supplement their practical interest and provide a balance with other academic subjects. I have also observed that in at least one school that the BS students take part in Young Enterprise and similar opportunities so have time for practical experience.

After a night marking year 9 exam papers I would like to address some points made -

in terms of Oxbridge/RG/Non RG but high ranking universities

I have many ex pupils who attend these universities that have a GCSE, BTEC L2 (even one who completed the shock horror Ex Diploma at Cambridge), A2 and BTEC L3 in Business.
Whilst I agree that it is not one the facilitating A Level subjects and quite rightly so (although it is suggested for some degrees, such as Accountancy, Actuarial Sciences, Business, Economics, Management Studies, Politics ) as students need a rounded education before they begin to specialise.

Traditionally my subject at A Level tends to be the 4th choice following 3 traditional subjects. It just happens that a lot of students continue to study the subject through to A2 after dropping of one of the traditional subjects due to good marks/enjoyment which means that numbers of students undertaking the subject stays at a high number.

This does not harm their future chances, and in fact in my experience has helped students to consider their future career paths given that the subject draws on so many different skills (numerical, analytical, extended writing, evaluative) to be used on a wide range of areas in which often students find their niche and where their future career might lie such as accountancy, marketing, HR, economics, law to name a few paths my ex students have taken.

in terms of what is learnt at GCSE and if it is needed

I previously stated that students learn a broad range in terms of business, looking at starting/small businesses and then larger business. They cover marketing, basic finance, HR, law, legal standing, raising finance, economic context. In order to be successful the skills needed to gain anything higher than a C grade are as per other subjects, they need to be able to analyse, evaluate, be numerical, be aware of the wider world and have excellent writing/research and essay skills.

Whilst undertaking the GCSE will not suddenly allow students to become overnight success in business nor does it claim to be a necessity to successful business ownership etc it does give students the information and knowledge (together with the above skills) in order to appreciate the issues faced, how decisions are made, why decisions are made and the impact of these decisions not only on a company but their stakeholders.

As adults who have worked and experienced the world the content might seem easy to us, but to 14-16 year olds this is new and interesting and ‘lightbulb’ moments happen every lesson. They build on these new skills and knowledge and often it can be taken into other subjects which is what should be happening in schools at GCSE.

should academic students take it?

Every school is concerned with their league table standings and the dread of OFSTED. In order for a school to be successful in both they ensure that academic (and the better schools every student) studies the appropriate range of subjects. Of course this means English, Maths, and Sciences but recently EBAC subjects for those capable and now the Progress 8 dictates EBAC subjects to be included. Therefore no school is going to suggest that a ‘traditional academic’ subject not be studied and this will continue (which I have no argument against).

But at GCSE it should be about a range of subjects and not just ones that are seen as academic. The arts, DT, technology and others such as Business, Health and Social, Law etc need to be studied in order to develop well rounded individuals. By the constant dismissal of these subjects we are in danger of having a generation that is very narrowly educated and the loss of the skills and knowledge that these subjects offer will be a detriment to the future of our society.

easy/soft subject

All GCSE (and equivalent) qualifications are subject to standards which are set by OFQUAL and are constantly examined. There are no ‘easy’ subjects, no ‘easy’ exams, no ‘easy’ Controlled Assessments at this level; some might seem as ‘easy’ to adults who have experience but to an average 16 year old this is not the case.

The specification I teach has one paper which only allows 1 mark to be dropped to be awarded A*, the extended writing paper also has very high grade boundaries and students are expected to write balanced, analytical answers which draw on not only their subject knowledge but also their general knowledge and draw an evaluation using supportive evidence – this is definitely not easy!

The whole ‘soft subjects’ notion at GCSE is not an issue if students have a balanced curriculum that covers a broad range of subjects

The 'magic 5' is the requirement in a similar sense to EE at A level being the requirement to enter Oxford

Yes, DS1 will need 6 Bs or above just to be able to continue to the sixth form. Some of the courses require an A grade at GCSE though.

The 'magic 5' is the requirement in a similar sense to EE at A level being the requirement to enter Oxford.

I don't know of any uni or profession that wants more than 5 GCSEs.

If you go for double science, English and maths that is 4, add in a humanity and that gives you 5. If you have triple science then that's 6.

The others can be academic or filler or just a fun subject. A language is preferable but only if you get a good grade so better to get an A in history than a D in French.

It's also worth looking at subjects as building blocks, to do a degree in science you need A Level science, to do A Level science you need GCSE science so GCSE is a building block. The same for languages, although many places allow you to take an A Level in a language you have not studied they will expect you to have GCSE in a language.

Business studies, psychology, Sociology, Law can all be studied at uni without A Levels in them, and for A level without GCSE.

In short, ensure you have enough building blocks, ensure you have the magic '5' and then do what other subjects you want for whatever reason.

I think it was Alan Sugar who said that "you can't learn business practices out of a book." A child would be far better off learning another foreign language, while perhaps experimenting in the hols with actually trying to make some money. Or even at school - one Tommie Rose recently made about 14k running a black market tuck shop at school, and followed up with a fortune from a signed Lucozade bottle. This kind of thing is infinitely more impressive than a naff GCSE on a university application, and gives genuine insight into how the "real world" operates. I have to wonder how many business studies teachers have actually run a business successfully.

As well as more modern languages, There's a good case for injecting one or two allegedly less academic GCSEs into a profile, and several that promote real life skills perfectly relevant for business - drama for communication skills, photography for DIY creation of marketing materials, DT or Textiles for actually making things, maybe to sell. All of these offer real skills - not vacuous theorising, and I'd put them well above Business Studies, Psychology, Media whatever, PE and the like at GCSE. It's not about snobbery - it's about genuine usefulness.

I would n't call BS or PE or the like 'filler subjects', just subjects that allow development of a certain ability or general knowledge together with associated useful skills. However I agree that they don't contribute directly to university study of more traditional academic subjects and might take up a subject slot that could be better used to widen academic interests.

"Can we not just give the young people the credit they deserve? Just for once?"

How is whether a subject is well respected or not related to whether or not a young person deserves credit for their work?

BS GCSE is not a well respected subject. Doesn't mean that a lot of DCs don't work very hard to get a good grade in it.

But I don't see the point in pretending to kids that it's useful in itself for higher academic study. "Not actively detrimental" is not the same as "actively useful" and is a million miles from "necessary", despite all the comments about how sometimes high flying kids study it. Sure they do. And sometimes they study PE, and sometimes they study Textiles...all are filler subjects which nobody is going to care whether you took or not provided you took the subjects they do care about and you have enough high enough grades overall.

(I'm a physics graduate who took O level woodwork, btw - no regrets at all. It was a soft option and opened zero doors for me. But I really enjoyed it.)

thefairy

When I did o levels drama was seen as a soft subject...it wasn't and isn't, same with PE (well nowadays anyway)

I think BS is seen as a soft subject, doesn't mean that it isn't hard work

Ds1 has certainly worked hard on it! Hopefully has finished his controlled assessment and will get a good mark for it!!!!!!!

He finished his Citizenship CA today, hope that gets a good mark as well!!!!!!!

DS2 did Business Studies and got an A. I wouldn't say it was a soft subject. There was a lot of work involved, when his teacher went on ML, another shit one was brought in, they missed some work and it took ages for them to catch up. He's a a bright lad, he's not interested in going into business but is no good at Art, can't play an instrument, didn't want to do IT, DT, or Food Tech and his preferred choice didn't get enough pupils opting for it so he did BS.

It does annoy me when I read people saying "it's a soft subject" "GCSEs aren't worth the paper they're written on" (not on this thread) etc. Most of the time those people haven't seen their DC work their balls off constantly for the past 2/3/4 years to achieve their full potential. Can we not just give the young people the credit they deserve? Just for once?

Economics is well respected but interestingly not on the list of facilitating subjects! However, it's fourth most popular A level at the very successful school I teach in! (Maths, Chemistry, Biology beat it)

A couple of "soft" GCSEs with 8 or so "hard" GCSEs won't worry top universities. And Economics is not a "soft" A2 - well, not as far as Trinity College Cambridge and LSE are concerned (though some MNers no doubt know better).