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Should we care that 50% of state schools didn't produce any medicine applicants in 3 years?

235 replies

legallady · 11/12/2014 09:58

Well if no one from those schools wanted to study medicine then maybe not but if they are not achieving the grades to be able to apply or are not being given the correct advice then maybe we should.

Certainly it seems wrong that half of applicants in that time frame came from independent and grammar schools. It suggests that our qualified doctors a few years down the line will come from a very narrow demographic - similar to our lawyers and politicians - and that can't be good for our society.

What (if anything) is going wrong?

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:24

It might be harder from a background with no medical people but the internet makes it much easier to find out any information ! And motivated teenagers will make it - as BluTack proves. The stats are silly. Take Richmond. Up to this year not one state school had a 6th form, so statistically none of them sent anyone to medical school !!!

Micah · 11/12/2014 19:18

I think careers advice has a lot to do with it too.

When I was at school any medical/vet/dentist aspirations were met with dire warnings if how hard it was to get in, and only the top students got a place, and oh look, you could do a btec in science rather than a'levels if you're interested in science.

I was actually told that medical schools accepted btecs.

If you're from a background where medical school isn't some impossible goal, and people you know have done it, then you know you can get there. If you're the first of your family to even consider uni, there's no one to tell you you can do it, so you aim lower.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:10

Oh and BluTack, you are awesome and will make a fab doctor as you have life experience. My DD had an interview at St Thomas' and was asked how she felt about working in such a poor area of London. She took much delight in telling the pompous interviewer that most of her family lived in Lambeth in the poor council accommodation he was talking about.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:08

I do wonder if some of you have ever been to a Comprehensive school ! By law they have to teach all 3 sciences, history & geography to GCSE. It's not optional. I fully agree that some schools give inadequate careers advice but we just called a few musical schools for advice. Durham were fab and said no medical experience was required but something in a caring environment. So mine worked in a care home as well as helping at a holiday scheme for disabled children for 2 years. Her parents both left school at 16 & died when she was doing her GCSEs. They then lived with my family so her home life is in no way privileged and she had to fight the odds to get there. (We had 5 kids and us living in a small 3 bedroom house). But so do most people who survive medical school (not just get in). It's hard and needs dedication. And as has been stated, a lot of Comps don't have a 6th form so kind of muddles these statistics a bit.

BrendaBlackhead · 11/12/2014 18:01

There are so many reasons for the failures in these schools. Staffing is one. In certain areas recruiting properly subject qualified staff is extremely difficult. Physics graduates do not grow on trees, let alone in, say, Great Yarmouth. Someone I know has been asked to teach Spanish to year 7s. She does not know one word of Spanish, but is going to have to mug up before every class.

I was reading an article in the Telegraph today saying that we are going to have to find alternative solutions to the teacher problem: you can't rustle up inspiring specialist teachers and force them to teach in places in Britain they don't want to live. With Teach First the teachers go to metropolitan areas rather than somewhere out in the sticks.

Perhaps there should be internet lessons beamed into classes and classroom supervisors hired to make everyone pay attention...

howtodrainyourflagon · 11/12/2014 17:33

At my catchment comp the kids have the door to most of the professions slammed shut as soon as they get the letter on allocation day. Three sciences aren't offered. Normal academic subjects like history and geography are taught in ks3 but not at gcse. All the kids have to do vocational options at gcse. This can take up between two and five of their gcse slots. The kids are fail from day one: put on a conveyor belt that doesn't allow them to do academic a levels, let alone the facilitating subjects that the top universities andmmedical schools require.

BluTacked · 11/12/2014 17:32

As a token pleb medical student, I can verify the lack of social diversity present in my even relatively socially diverse and modern medical school compared to other ones i.e Cambridge.

Only 2% of medical students come from lower socio-economic groups or what you would loosely label as working class according to some 2008 report. A significant proportion of our course is privately educated. However misconstruing state-educated as synonymous with poor is a common error. The majority of the students, either privately or state educated, regale stories of expensive gap years, have cars more expensive than I'll be able to afford for ten years (junior doctor wages aren't fantastic) and mostly come from medical/academic/professional families. Most of the students that access our medical school bursary are a tad bit fraudulent as their self-employed parents like fiddling with their taxable income, I'm currently eyeing up an Audi A3 of a student who gets the same full grants and loans as me.

The biggest barriers I personally faced as a daughter of a widowed bipolar alcoholic were accessing the required work experience for getting into medial school and lack of education towards polishing my UCAS application. Applying to medical school is very strategic and I only got in first time round to my 4th choice thanks to TSR and harassing many an irritating admin worker from HR in hospitals to admission departments. I had to ring up the volunteering services at my local hospital for five months just for her to send off the required CRB check needed before I could volunteer on the wards. I had to write to 52 consultants and 24 GPS to get shadowing experience. I never got taught how to write formal letters even in my shitty high school so I had to teach myself that basic task as well. I got my PS glimpsed at by somebody with no knowledge of applying to medical school who would not even proofread it for me.

We had poor career's advice in high school as well. One career's adviser told me outright to consider nursing rather than medicine because my grades weren't good enough to get in. My 5A*s and 4As at GCSE were inadequate supposedly, despite being the 3rd best results in the school year. They were not good enough for a large chunk of medical schools which is disgusting.

There's also flawed medical school entrance exams which are falsely presented as improving the chances of disadvantaged applicants being fairly represented. They're not, the UKCAT is a mere lottery designed to throw away a large percentage of the applicants so it can save the university's time. Both the UKCAT and the BMAT have plenty of expensive preparatory courses alongside the fact even doing the exams cost money. Getting reimbursed for being a pleb like me for these exams took so much time and effort. Never mind the expensive university interview outfits and travelling.

Medical school admissions like most universities are very opaque in nature and their hidden cut off points have to be researched. A medical school might not declare it on their website that their UKCAT/GCSE at A* % cut off point exists but it does. My GCSE results and UKCAT results since they were decidedly average for a medical student prevented me from applying to most of them. All medical schools spout that they understand that some students struggle to get work experience but THEY STILL REJECT YOU WITHOUT IT. I'm very lucky to have harassed my way into getting plenty of it.

The most heartbreaking thing for me is to see other privileged medical students getting in with AAB on results day when my medical school should have considered their less polished disadvantaged contemporaries. I have to work with these AAB students now and my academic 'superiority' is pretty apparent, their resourcefulness is poor and they depend on returning home to be harangued into revision. They struggle to retain information and rely on their overconfidence to swim through our history taking and patient examinations.

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 17:22

It isn't a school Taz It's an entire borough!

Taz1212 · 11/12/2014 16:54

This is one of the many reasons we went private. We're in Scotland so it's a bit different, but a few years ago, our catchment high school slashed the Highers and Advanced Highers on offer, preferring to focus on vocational routes for children (the Council explained it was due to the "economic demographics" of the catchment). As a result, they no longer offer the range of Highers required for admission to a medical/vetrinary degree.

I can't understand the reasoning behind limiting children in this way- are there really no students at that school capable of completing a medical degree? Angry

Bramshott · 11/12/2014 15:36

Can you provide a link to the info or a media report? The county I live in has almost no sixth forms in schools (just FE colleges) so if others have similar, that could have skewed the figures considerably.

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 15:32

Do you or your DP have a levels or a degree mumneedswine ?

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 15:31

If you're not from a middle-class home I believe the chances of success are greatly diminished.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 15:23

Well we do live in the South (so are obviously rich ?!?). My DD is actually my niece and we are working class and proud of it. Yes some kids don't get the support to do medicine but just coz you're not from a weathly middle class home does not mean you won't succeed.

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 15:08

I wish people wouldn't stick their heads in the sand. There will of course be lots of medics from comps but I bet the majority are London/south east, leafy suburb types.
What about these kids?
I don't believe for one minute there isn't one who didn't have the potential to become a doctor yet they weren't even doing the correct A level choices to even be considered.

BrendaBlackhead · 11/12/2014 15:08

loads of kids go to medical school from ds's comprehensive school. So many I'm seriously concerned about encountering one I know in a few years' time when I have some embarrassing complaint!

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 15:02

But medical schools are full of Comp kids ?!?! I know nothing about official figures - just know the students who are currently studying with mine. And 2 of her friends at different medical schools - also went to Comp and have lots of friends who did too.

purpleroses · 11/12/2014 15:00

Quite a lot of state schools have only a small sixth form, do don't send that many kids to do anything each year. So I don't by think it's that odd a statistic. Would be more useful to know what proportion of medical students are from comprehensives.

What it does suggest though it's that small or not so brilliant comprehensive badly need a proper careers service provided by real experts, not the schools themselves who may not have a clue how to advise someone interested in medicine. I think the cuts to careers services are one of the worst things you can do for social mobility.

broccoliear · 11/12/2014 14:58

I think it's problematic if doctors are not broadly representative of the communities they serve. Doctors are not (just) technicians: a big part of healing is communication and empathy. So it helps if you have something in common with your patients. Of course it's not absolutely necessary: look at all the foreign doctors we have in the UK doing a great job. But overall, we want the profession to represent the population, not a white, monied subset of it.

The problem is, as pp have said, aspiration and opportunity. If no one I know is a doctor, what on earth is going to make me think I can be one myself?

slippermaiden · 11/12/2014 14:50

Millymollymama I'm a nurse and so work with a lot of doctors. I wouldn't wish their job on anyone. The buck stops with them, long working hours, little social life, moving around all the time, stress. In the hospital we are all members of the multidisciplinary team and all equally important. Try dentistry, big money, less stress!

LooseAtTheSeams · 11/12/2014 14:44

I'd be really careful about extrapolating anything from a 50% figure. You need to know a lot more about what puts students with the right A level subjects off applying for medical degrees. What do they opt for instead and why? You'd need to know if this figure includes all state schools or all state schools that actually have sixth forms - many don't so it's irrelevant to include them.

Does it say more about changes to the NHS than about state schools? Most state schools with sixth forms would love to get kids into medical school, I'm sure! Our local comp got its sixth form back just a few years ago and is really encouraging suitable students to apply. But the students really, really have to want to do it and their parents may need fears about the training and long hours allayed. There are a lot of factors that could be behind the percentage and I suspect more detailed research needed to make sense of it.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 14:21

Well my eldest is at medical school from a Comp - as are 67% of the class (Prof told them proudly). And she had 4 offers so can't be the only University accepting these poor unfortunates who populate Comprehensives.

apotatoprintinapeartree · 11/12/2014 12:57

I don't know anybody who has gone on to do medicine from state schools. Even the brightest lad whose parents were really committed and Dad was the assistant head, did pharmacy instead.

The majority will come from the private sector because no matter how much we try and kid ourselves, private is usually better because parents pay for the privilege.

The sate sector, the same as any other service provided by the state/public sector is basic.

rhetorician · 11/12/2014 12:34

lots of issues here, but the main one is that medicine is highly competitive and confers significant life-long earning potential. You don't need to be middle-class to do it - but being middle-class shouldn't preclude you from doing it. Unless you want to go into high level research (and many will come to medical research from other academic routes) you probably don't need stellar academic credentials - very good ones, for sure, but most of the successful applicants probably have better academic qualifications than they need. However, what they do need is excellent communication and people skills, which the last time I checked were not the exclusive preserve of any one social grouping.

As to PastSellBySate - the research bears you out, but I would take exception to "If Mommy was an academic you're likely to be one" - academia for recent and new entrants has been so downgraded that it barely qualifies as a profession any more in my view, and I certainly wouldn't be rushing to persuade my child to spend 6-7 years in higher ed, followed by about a decade of short-term contracts/hourly pay, only to take up a post without security which pays less than many administrative jobs (which may at least have the benefit of not expecting a 24-7 commitment). Even amongst my much more privileged peers in academia, I know of no-one with a child who has followed in their footsteps. Sorry. As you were.

smokepole · 11/12/2014 12:26

Its not surprising that "everybody" except a few ideologists on here, want a selective education for their children (if available and able enough) when looking at these figures.

The figures show that unless your child is educated in a Private, Grammar or one of the very selective "Comprehensives" like Parmiters , they are likely not to get on to a selective course or in to a top ranked University. The Medicine statistics might be the headline. However, you can be sure the numbers going on to highly academic courses and top professions, will be similar tiny from 50% of secondary schools.

MillyMollyMama · 11/12/2014 12:17

A level students opt for Medicine in droves!!! It is one of the hardest courses to get onto but is hardly short of applicants! The problem is that they do not come from a sufficiently wide variety of schools. Of course not all high achieving students want to be Doctors, but if schools think a high achieving child who has show an interest in the medical profession should aspire to be a nurse and not a doctor, is there any wonder the statistics show a bias towards the better schools?

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