Should we care that 50% of state schools didn't produce any medicine applicants in 3 years?

There are increasingly more "secure" (which is a relative rather than absolute notion) jobs for people trained in the arts within business. Obviously the opportunities for self-realisation and/or celebrity are more limited but eg designing luxury goods and experiences requires people with very strong arts training. I have many friends who work for LVMH, Hermes and even l'Oreal with arts training.

Of course I'm not alright with it, but it's a bit silly to be annoyed that so many people are seeking security of employment, by competing for the very few professions that offer it, given the situation is as it is. More people competing to get into the arts will not make it more secure.

Right through history the arts have been paid for by people with lots of money (patrons). There is nothing, but nothing new about this.

So that's alright then, is it? You're fine with only the monied having the opportunity to pursue transformative enriching careers (or even getting an education that might facilitate this)?

Mind you, artists were always supposed to starve in garrets... along with the vast majority of musicians and actors. These fields have NEVER been considered a good option for anyone who wants to try and ensure they can always support their own family. That's why medicine, law, veterinary science, accountancy etc, are so popular - because they are seen as safe ways to find what is likely to be a reasonably secure and steady income. They are seen as professions that are likely always to be needed, whereas artists are seen as dispensable with when the going gets tough. If you want to point to a time when art, music and drama were for any but the most wealthy dabblers or most insecure and impoverished, you are thinking of a dot in history.

Rabbit I am not so old that I am from the time of people being able to sign on while doing unpaid work for arts organizations. Also, he was from a monied background he wouldn't have been signing on even if he could have been signing on.

I think there also used to be less disapproval of the idea of struggling artists, musicians and actors signing on while looking for work... These days, the same people would be required to work 12 hours a day in a supermarket, thus giving them no time whatsoever to look for the work they actually trained to do.

I recently listened to a very successful friend giving a talk to young people who aspire to, if not be him, then at least have a similar career (arts). He was talking about all the stuff he did for free after we left university, to get his name known and get experience etc. And as I listened I remembered how I started paid work the Monday after we graduated, because I had literally no other option. Whereas he was from a monied background. He's a lovely lovely bloke but - theres a real disconnect between people who can afford to invest the time in doing free stuff to build their reputation and people who simply can't. And there seems to be very little understanding from either side (because I expect it was actually very hard for him, just a different sort of hard).

Word - obviously it's the arts that are my chief concern. The Brobdingnagian expense of the music process is driving me to despair. I do not see how ordinary people can possibly be on a level playing field.

I agree with rabbit too. I'm quite pleased that neither of mine wanted to go in for any of the ridiculously competitive University courses (medicine / vet / law / etc).

rabbit I agree.

I get very pessimistic about the future of the arts for example. Every time I meet my publishers/agent/ pr/ production co etc there is some intern sitting there smiling.

Or put another way, significant numbers of UK students now study abroad. Given there are no student loans this option really is limited to the better off.

My understanding is that the biggest issue in medical training is the shortage of university places meaning that, as a country, the UK has to import a lot of doctors who may be much less well trained than our own.

There are things I care about an awful lot more. Like, for example, the fact that medicine as seen as the holy grail for the 'brainy' at the expense of all other subjects. There are degrees which are far more weighted against students from challenging backgrounds (or just ordinary non wealthy ones) but nobody seems to care. There are school subjects which are becoming real Cinderella subjects - but they aren't science so apparently nobody cares. Society neither wants nor needs every single bright kid to be a doctor - but you wouldn't think it, the way some parents, schools, the media and to a certain extent even the government carry on.

Dpotter I think most med schools recognise there is an issue here and would wish to widen participation.

Presently, they have a glut of applicants from independent and grammar schools. They would like to see more coming from the comprehensive sector.

The difficulty lies, as you've identified in patchy provision. One school can have an excellent history of ensuring their pupils make good choices and get good grades whilst encouraging them to the most competitive courses, where other schools have very poor records of some or all those things.

Which type of school a kid ends up in, is a bit of a lottery.

Though I'm not saying internships etc are not a scourge in other industries ; they are.

And the unofficial requirement for MAs in many areas is also problematic as there is little funding for post graduate study.

The obsession with voluntary work on this thread is because talkin says so!

Knowing the square route of fuck all about university admissions for medical school, apparently she gets to tell us all where the real problems lie as 'fact'.

And she'll be rude to anyone questioning her .

The reality is that work experience in hospitals isn't the main barrier to widening access in medicine. Just as it isn't in law, finance...

A couple of things to spring to mind about this 'fact'
firstly I accept that some schools don't always encourage their students as much as they could
secondly how realistic is it that someone from an academy specialising in modern languages is likely to want to study medicine ?
thirdly my DN from her inner city comp is studying medicine - with no pre-experience; and of her peers there are a couple of biochemists, mathematicians and a vet
fourth - I know a couple of local private schools who this year didn't have any medics
as you can see I am not a mathematician.............

senua
personally I CBA, as neither of my kids ever want to go into that sphere

and I find the faith in the detailed reading skills of admission tutors to be sweet, but out of kilter with the data

ANY degree that requires pre commencement experience is by definition discriminatory
so how about the Universities just STOP using it

and how about the employers stop using unpaid interns and go back to paying for holiday jobs as they did until 15 years ago?

BS27 3SD : get yourself to the hospital by public tranpsort for work experience

There is a care home for the elderly at BS27 3TN. Near enough for you?

I don't understand your obsession with hospital experience. I think that sometimes it can actually count against you. Chances are that hospital work has been obtained through parents' contacts. Chances are that unglamorous care work has been organised by the applicant themselves, therefore shows more commitment.

TalkinPeace - I really don't think it is compulsory to know it is now called the Disclosure and Barring Service. If you've been working in the same place for years, you will have had your check done by the Criminal Records Bureau.

Agent
CRB was abolished nearly three years ago.
I'm rather shocked that somebody in the medical sphere, interested in the UK system, did not know that

My dd is at medical school she went to a London comprehensive. And worked in a fast food out let and her gap year work experience was as a health care assistant in an old peoples home for which she earned minimum wage for a twelve hour day.the med schools loved her. But she did get good careers advice. And mumsnet and tsr were use full. She also swotted for the ukc at from a book and an online course for about £40' so not a huge outlay.