Standard of French

sinclair I wouldn't expect many 16 year olds to be reading novels in French but if, by that age, they have not been taught the basic foundations of the language then how might they ever progress, unless by starting again at an evening class or online course?

Current MFL teaching makes my blood boil ... All three of mine in three different schools have done Spanish, starting with the same useless textbook - both ds1 and 2 can parrot useless phrases giving their opinions of email as a method of communication or what they would change if they were headteacher but couldn't order a meal in a restaurant and as for dealing with any kind of emergency, well forget it! They have a bank of phrases which they can spout out for exam purposes (neither is a natural linguist but one got and the other is predicted an A at GCSE) - but they have zero understanding of how the language actually works.

Perhaps we should look at how children learn languages in other countries learn English and go from there. Since they are clearly better at it than us there must be some things we could learn?

I suspect in many places it involves films/ cartoons etc.

How do they teach English in France and Germany for example?

Love the aspiration up the thread for 16 year olds to be reading novels in French (or other MFL) but really when was that ever the case here?

I am fluent in French and can manage conversation in a couple of other European languages, did a degree in MFL, lived abroad for a number of years yada yada but only manage the odd newspaper when on holiday now. I did A Levels almost before they were invented but even we only read a couple of very accessible set books...hardly Proust.

I have had huge pleasure and not inconsiderable work type benefits from speaking a second language but I underline speaking it - which I had to learn when living there, in my early 20s, when it became clear that the ability to conjugate cueillir was not going to be that useful.

The more conversational approach of today's curriculum seems eminently more sensible.

"You didn't learn to speak English by learning I go, you go, he/she/it goes. "

When infants learn their native language, they do it through total immersion. The idea that this could be adapted to learning a foreign language later on, in two hours a week, was one of the more bizarre developments of progressive teaching, and is completely unsupported by psychology. It has been one of the biggest reasons for the weakness of language instruction over the last 30 years.

But perhaps I'm the only person left alive who thinks learning how languages work is just as important as being able to ask for a sandwich.

It's not only you Zero, if that's any consolation.

From reading the posts here we seem to have a situation where it is possible to get an A for GCSE in a language with scarcely any grasp of grammar and a total inability to hold even the most basic conversation. This seems to imply that hours and hours of joyless and pointless lessons (for teachers and pupils alike) are taking place everyday, which is certainly a most depressing thought.

I have been going to French classes for about 4 years (building on O level from years ago) and I love my lessons. We are all pretty fluent speakers, and we quite enjoy looking at some of the grammar too, following this up with 'real life' examples in stories and songs. There is absolutely no reason why learning another language cannot be enjoyable and effective.

I teach French and German and don't tend to teach great rafts of grammar as it can just confuse the students.

This is the saddest thing I've ever read on MN outside of the Relationships board.

I completely appreciate that there will be a variety of capabilities in any school but the thought of schools full of pupils who will never be able to read a novel in another language is so, so disheartening.

But perhaps I'm the only person left alive who thinks learning how languages work is just as important as being able to ask for a sandwich.

I can't believe we haven't sorted out language teaching in this country yet.

My DSs spent 4 years "learning" Spanish in primary, I believe because they had a TA who had a bit of holiday Spanish and that was the best they could do. They can count to 10 and sing some songs. Now they're at the local secondary, they're doing French and German

I got an A at O-level French and learned all the correct grammar etc. It's now very rusty but even at the time it could never be said that I could speak French and yet I was awarded an A. I actually think holiday French would have been more useful to me.

I think both would be the best route.

Ds achieved an A* and his French is frankly appalling compared with mine so I suppose it doesn't matter. But from an academic point of view, I am disappointed.

Fence sitting here for 2 reasons. Firstly TBH non of mine were ever going to cont languages post GCSE and were getting the marks they needed so I left them to it ..

But surely the French/german they need is " holiday" anyway? Asking for a train ticket, buying a beer, saying " good morning its a lovely day" in a way that is sufficiently formal/informal... That's what they need isn't it? Even if the grammar is wobbling along the lines of " I was going to Paris tomorrow ticket I need" .... OK it'll give the ticket chap a laugh but you'll get what you require .

I spent five years banging my head against a brick wall - complaining at parents' evenings about the "holiday French" ds was doing.

I can conjugate any amount of verbs - but - as a product of O Levels, I cannot speak any French to save my life! Unseen translations - no problem. Having to ask for a train ticket? Cue much stammering and stuttering in a terrible posh English accent with smatterings of franglais.

I teach French and German and don't tend to teach great rafts of grammar as it can just confuse the students.

You didn't learn to speak English by learning I go, you go, he/she/it goes.

I find the best way is to introduce phrases that are useful for the topic and expand from there as needed - eg in yr 7 we do a lot of work on simple questions and answers in term 1, so my students can all say/write "I have a dog/I have two sisters/I am 11 years old" etc. But now we are also writing about the dog or the sister so the question of "he is/she has" comes up quite naturally.

Don't like the sound of copying chunks of sentences - that's never a great way to learn anything tbh.

YY what year is she in?

When I learned French, we conjugated verbs, not declined them. We did decline nouns in Latin. There seems to be less of an emphasis on grammar these days, and more of a focus on topic-based vocabulary.

What year group?

In y7 it was like this for DD, it concentrated on being able to say set phrases, and then slightly adapting them.

But in y8 they started at the beginning again with grammar.

I'm not keen, but it seems to have worked out OK (now in y11 and seems OK at grammar).