Standard of French

Of use but almost certainly covered in school.

Oh thanks!

KS. Past papers thoroughly covered in school.

not looked properly but this might be of use?

Scholarship at 13+ is really intense. I think it does depend on the schools you are applying for - of course practise papers and past papers from them are going to be the best thing to start with, but wide reading will be hugely beneficial, as would essay writing and translation/prose. As for resources, I'm not sure what there is that's specific, but I'll take a look.

(Current school is as described by Word.)

Loopy (or indeed anyone else) it's interesting to hear about the resources you mention. Outside of school is there anything you would recommend for 13+ (scholarship) exams which will be well beyond GCSE level and probably more complex than AS in some aspects? (Think long, long passages of deliberately obscure French from perhaps technical, historic, or very serious journalistic essays. I have A 'Level French and have found the past papers I've looked at horribly challenging.)

I've already put Le Bon Usage on my Christmas list - but suspect I'll be the only one opening it.

I think we dropped on lucky at DC's prep school. The French teaching was excellent.

But then it was a large school that had the resources; three permanent native speakers, plus peri staff too.

The HofD was both formidable and boundless in her energy, securing plenty of time and space in the curriculum for her baby .

There was also regular homework ( which I know many find anathema at primary age) which meant the basics were consolidated early. Plus setting.

Both left that school both well versed and enthusiastic to continue and learn other languages.

I'm a great believer in learning MFL vocabulary with a picture (or label on an object) and not with a translation. I've learned 4 MFL, only one through English (the others were direct method, these days called immersion) and the one I learned through English hasn't stuck like the others. DD has only learned through immersion techniques and her vocabulary in Spanish, 14 months in, is impressive. No vocabulary lists ever!

NeedMoreSleep - even in Paris the teaching of English is dreadful!

My comments below are about the teaching of French.

I think everyone needs to try and use a variety of vocab learning methods. The most effective are really obvious - writing over and over again, reading aloud, making little flash cards (I particularly like these to be kept in a box and grouped by category), address books used as vocab books and read over, little flip books, posters stuck to the outside of the shower, labeling in room etc. Flashcards are the most versatile - I will always start the new year by teaching a number of games and methods for using flashcards.

I spent some time with a memory champion, who talked through the 'rooms in a house' method, and I like to look at these as well as other memory strategies (mnemonics, telling a story etc.) with students.

I have to say, that the majority of students do prefer the online/app methods. Language Perfect is very expensive but customisable, they will upload all vocab from textbooks, has teacher tracking tools, and the students compete against each other and against the clock. Certainly the younger students spend more time on this than other methods. There are other, cheaper software possibilities - textivate, task magic and lots of others. I personally am not too much of a fan of any websites that don't allow you to customise content, as I feel the range of vocabulary is often very limited in these. Fine for a bit of a change, but better for the younger years and less aspiring linguists.

That's really interesting Loopy. Having a good vocabulary is one of the key's to fluency. What are your techniques for learning vocab?

When I was at school I had a small booklet on 1000 French words - grouped into topics of about ten words, and I found that this was very helpful. The book was small enough to slip into a pocket and I could pull it out whilst waiting for the bus etc. and learn a small section. Other teachers seem very dismissive of this method though, but all I can say was that it worked for me, but it would be good to know what other methods are recommended.

I also take NeedsMoreSleeps point - English is at present the international language, so it makes sense for others to learn this. We are a bit stuck as to which to chose - French, previously the diplomatic language, German - useful for Central and Eastern Europe and trade, Spanish - up coming, especially as parts of the USA are becoming increasingly hispanic, Mandarin - possibly the coming language.

Very interesting loopy to hear such a concise description of how MFL teaching can really be made to work, if the will is there. But as you say, it is a pretty big culture shift from what most UK schools offer - even most private schools, I'd have said. Has anyone experienced language teaching of comparable quality/intensity within the UK? The teaching I received for A level Latin and Greek was comparable to this I'd say, and though I didn't do an MFL at that level what I saw of what was going on suggests that it was similar, but that was at a very unusually academic school, and it was obvious as an undergraduate that even within the parameters of an Oxbridge classics intake, the teaching I had had at A level was matched only by one or two other schools.

Bonsoir, our experience is that outside Paris, teaching of English in France can be pretty awful. A friend whose children have mother tongue English found they were regularly marked down for small errors, some of which probably weren't errors anyway.

By secondary the group my daughter knew seemed to have lost any interest in learning English, seeing it a dull subject involving long exercises. She was quite shocked, when helping one friend with some homework, at how little her friend understood of what she was doing. I doubt at any point, and my daughter had spent quite a lot of time in France, that any of the French kids attempted to speak any English to her. If anything, and this is despite all the exposure French kids have to English via music, the Internet and games, their English was worse than the French, English children achieve at GCSE.

Paris is different and we know children at private Parisian schools who get sent as a matter of course to the UK at about 10 to spend a month in the UK to gain a solid foundation. We have more excuse. English is THE international language. From my observation the French don't get it any more right than we do.

No. I don't want to be too specific but not IB and not UK curriculum.

Are you teaching in an MYP school, Loopy?

I teach French in a non-UK school. Most of my students have been learning French for 3 years, and I would say that the majority of my year 8 class could comfortably sit and pass a GCSE. The main difference are, in my opinion:

Students with an international mindset - languages are seen as very important
Many more lessons per week than you would have in a UK state school
Small classes of motivated students (with motivated parents)
Lack of tight control over how we teach
Large budget
Teacher-set assessment (no external assessment)

I focus a lot on grammar, and most of my students find my grammar lessons the most engaging. Personally I think grammar can be really fun (but I am a bit of a geek). I don't have much time for themed content - although of course I use it in class, all homework is vocabulary learning, as I feel that is something that needs to be done individually and in their preferred style. I teach them various ways of learning vocabulary and they choose what works for them. We have invested heavily in expensive vocabularly learning software, which means that even those students who might not enjoy sitting down with words to memorise really do have a vocab learning method that they enjoy.
This means, I can spend lessons focusing on delivering content, facilitating group tasks/speaking activities etc. I do not mark homework, but I spend a long time in individual consultation with students about their work. I can do this because of the increased hours and smaller classes.
I have purchased a massive range of readers, ranging from picture books to guided readers, bilingual novels and full monolingual novels. I expect each student from year 6 to read to themselves regularly in French, and I take time to hear them read, just as a primary teacher would.

Yes, I think the GCSE syllabus is set at a low level, but I think this is a reflection of the ridiculous expectations on schools nowadays. Timetabling for MFL is rarely a priority, and when you have large mixed sets for only an hour or two a week alongside a tiny budget, it is impossible to do what we really should be doing for our young linguists.
Only when languages are prioritised as a core subject will we see a return to GCSE students being able to function properly in their languages. For now, teachers are judged by the exam grades (and judged incredibly harshly). So, they have to do what they can to drag students through the GCSE. This means focusing on where they can get points, and this means learning set phrases.

The cahiers de vacances are drilling exercises, not lessons.

My DD's class teachers use the interactive white board for teaching grammar most of the time.

Bonsoir In that case I am missing a point in how grammar is taught (I am not a trained linguist as you are.
My siblings' and cousins' DCs CE and CM textes as well as devoirs de vacances seem to teach it in a very standard way although obviously aimed at younger children. The textbooks are definitely more colourful though than when we were at that stage.

My DD goes to an école privée sous contrat with Education Nationale teachers and standard text books, inspected to the usual Education Nationale standards.

I am talking about basic grammar here, Irene you overestimate what primary school children are learning in the UK. Basic English grammar from basic Latin comprising what is an a noun, direct and indirect object, possessive etc. Certainly not comparing gerund and subjunctive equivalents in English .
Bonsoir does your DD go to a normal French school or a private school with international pupils? I have seen no evidence of 'modern methods' used in normal state French schools to teach grammar even now.

I agree, Irene. French or Latin conjugation are boring and repetitive but actually a lot less conceptually difficult than English tenses and one does not provide enlightenment as to the other.

I cannot write a grammar book in an MN post . The underpinnings of grammar in French that my DD learns (in a French NC school) are different to those my DP learned. And if you read a book on grammar for EFL you will find the same underpinnings as my DD learns in French.

"My DS's school taught English grammar through teaching Latin grammar. Once you've done it in one language it is much easier to apply to another."

Well yes, but actually English grammar is different from Latin (and French) grammar in lots of ways. It's impossible to get a handle on the very complex English tense system via Latin and French. My Latin grammar is excellent, as is my English usage, but once I met a German who had studied English properly and I just could not answer all his grammar questions.

Sorry, bit of a random rant there.

That sounds just exactly up DS's street, kalidasa. Or, as he would no doubt say, totally awesome .

Bonsoir neither myself and my generation or my family's younger generation going through a European country school system at the moment have experienced any 'modern' approach. It is still the same just with more textes in between the grammar bits. Please tell me what they are missing out on .