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Original poster

DS has unexpectedly passed 11+ - should we apply for grammar place or stick with comprehensive?

62 replies

LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 15:06

DS (10) sat the entrance exam for an isolated grammar in the next county (we have none in our LEA). He decided in early August to give it a go. We assumed, because of last-minute prep and no external tutoring and how far out of catchment we are, that he probably wouldn't pass – and even if he did, that he wouldn't get in with us living so far away – but he fancied the challenge so went for it anyway, for experience as much as anything. He did pass, and we've been told he has a 50:50 chance of getting a place if we put the school as first preference on DS's secondary application form.

This has put us in a bit of a quandary, because we just hadn't thought it would be an option. DS had homed in on a reasonable comprehensive about a 15-minute drive away – compared to the hour-long public transport trip he'd have to and from the grammar. Transport would be an issue for us. I would have to pay for it as DS's dad and I are not together, and maintenance payments are erratic. The grammar is also in the opposite direction from where I work, should transport not work out sometimes. I work full-time. Whatever we go for has to be affordable and workable for me (as opposed to me and DS's dad as a team).

I've spoken to the comprehensive about how well it caters for kids of DS's ability. It streams for most subjects from Year 8 and seems to get good results with these children. Overall (across all ability levels), 55-70% of pupils achieve at least five A*-C grades including maths and English, depending on a given year's cohort – so not bad but not consistently better than mediocre either. It feels like a nice school – friendly, outdoorsy, relatively few behavioural issues. It has been rated 'good' by Ofsted. But there are curriculum restrictions – geography or history, French or German – and I think pupils taking the academic route tend to sit only about eight GCSEs, occasionally one or two more. I don't mind this if they get eight good grades and have reasonable subject choices.

The grammar is in a different league – super high-achieving – with Latin and other foreign languages in the mix too. Otherwise, it's not too dissimilar subject-wise from the comprehensive – but a lot more GCSEs are taken. There's more, and very competitive, sport and DS loves sport. But the day is longer, there's way more homework, and DS would lose a few hours a day to travel on top of that. He wouldn't know anyone there (his closest friends are planning to go to the comprehensive he likes). And it's single-sex and he really likes having friends who are girls too. He is bright, has been working at level 5 (6 for maths) for close to a year and picks things up so fast, but is quite down-to-earth too – he isn't the kind of kid who comes home and wants to immerse himself in a book; he likes Xbox, his friends and lives for football. He really enjoys school, and his teacher has been superb at challenging him and taking him as far as he can go – but he likes the cut-off at the end of the day and then having his own life and doing his own thing, which I fear he wouldn't get enough of if he were to go to the grammar.

I feel that he has the chance of a highly rigorous academic education at the grammar, and all the opportunities that could lead to in his future, but I'm not convinced he'd be as happy there as at the comprehensive. And he'd have to sacrifice a lot more time to school/travel. But I don't want him to go to the comprehensive and then under-perform. I still want him to achieve what he's capable of. And I feel guilty (and a bit mad?!) to be contemplating throwing away the possibility of a place at a school that other parents seem to have invested their lives (and wallets) in for years.

So to the secondary application form ... WWYD?

OP posts:
grassroots · 22/10/2014 10:05

Is it possible you are leaning towards the Comprehensive because it is in your comfort zone? Secondary is a big change all round - and change is hard! I think you may both regret it later if you don't give him this chance now, even though it is hard, and yes, possibly a little scary. Best wishes to you both.

saintlyjimjams · 21/10/2014 22:50

grammar's don't usually have a geographical catchment do they?? My son is at a grammar (year 8) - we live pretty close to it, but his friends come from all over the place. Only 1 other boy went from his school, but the transition was handled really well and there were lots of people who were either the only boy from their school or one of a handful. It makes it easy to settle as they're all new.

That said we had a comprehensive he really liked as a second choice and would have been happy with either school.

eatyourveg · 21/10/2014 09:15

7.30-5.00 is pretty standard around here - catch the bus around 7.45-8.00 to get to school for 8.30 registration then bus /train home around 4-4.15 back in home town 4.30 and walk home. At secondary most dc I think do roughly those hours unless they live on top of a school that runs 8.30-3.00

longtallsally2 · 21/10/2014 08:42

I teach in a 'good all round, not outstanding' comp such as you describe and many of our students are happy, successful and able to achieve well. My son went to an outstanding comp, but won a bursary to a local private school which he now attends. He too is football mad and loves his X-box.

For me the crunch decision was when he said he would be happy to play much less Xbox and football in term time. He is still glued to the screen in the holidays, but he does have to use evenings now for homework. He can squeeze football in, but with some careful planning.

I think that you and your son sound very clued up as to what you want. He sounds lovely and I am sure he will do well at both. There's a lot to be said for an education that challenges and stretches you: he's clearly bright and will enjoy the challenge. But there is also a lot to be said for good friends, and a happy schooling, where you can still achieve well.

I would suggest that you ask how he would feel playing much less Xbox/football during the week. Could he cope with an hour's travel and then two hours homework in the evening? There is still time to chill out, eat, do something else, but you do have to be organised and be prepared to prioritise.

Best of luck whichever way you decide.

Ionacat · 21/10/2014 08:28

It would be unusual to only sit 8 GCSEs of English x 2, Science x 3 and Maths as that would only leave you two options which would be generally a language and either History or Geography. More likely to be English will be taught in the same lesson time, some schools ask pupils to opt for triple as as choice and it takes up an option block some just teach triple in the time allocated to double. Options are changing all the time what with league tables, best 8 etc. and the change to different courses. As long as they offer a variety of subjects at GCSE, I really wouldn't worry about it and with the new GCSEs being tougher I suspect the Grammar schools will start cutting down their number of options in order to access the highest grades.

Preciousbane · 20/10/2014 23:46

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stonecircle · 20/10/2014 23:43

I'd be a bit worried about only doing 8 GCSEs at the comp. That doesn't leave much after English x 2, Science x 3 and Maths. He sounds clever (esp to have passed with no prep) and self-motivated and more suited to a grammar school environment.

If he goes to the comp you'd probably be wondering 'what if'. I doubt you would be wondering that if he went to the grammar.

I was a bit apprehensive about a single sex grammar for my sons but honestly it's been fine (and plenty of opportunities to acquire girlfriends!)

I admit the journey sounds long - do you mean one hour door to door? Or an hour on the bus(es) with extra time at each end?

DorothyGherkins · 20/10/2014 23:39

My kids went to a grammar school over an hours bus ride away. The first term they found exhausting, with the long day, new routine, and then plenty of homework . They both settled in really well, the travelling was never an issue, and they both made friends for life there. It probably wouldnt suit everyone, but I felt it helped make them very independent and self sufficient.

Mrsgrumble · 20/10/2014 23:38

He does sound like a great lad. Good of him getting those results. I thk you need to talk to his teacher, they will know him did his capabilities and will help you.

AtiaoftheJulii · 20/10/2014 23:30

Legs yes, we are less than two miles from my son's school. But two of my girls have an hour's journey to school (comp) - leave at 7.10, walk or bus just under a mile into town, get on bus at 7.30 out of town to school (not particularly far, just slow), five/ten minute walk into school - and it's ok. They're home at 4.

I wouldn't automatically rule out a school because of a longish (but straightforward) journey. But if there's somewhere nearer that you seem to like more? I think that's probably the one I'd go for!

Original poster
LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 23:24

Probably, Coolas, only in as much as we first visited the comprehensive over a year ago and DS has been back twice and liked it. We've kept an eye on its results. Given our mediocre-to-utterly-crap catchment and other nearby schools, this particular comprehensive has seemed like the best - only - option for months. And then last week DS got his 11+ result and now we're all at sea!

OP posts:
Original poster
LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 23:20

Good idea to speak to his teacher. She knows his approach to schoolwork better than us. We have a parents evening coming up.

And DS did do some prep - he didn't wing it with no prep at all! He worked through some practice papers over the summer and we religiously went over all the incorrect answers. He maybe did five days' prep in total in the couple of months leading up to the test - not masses, but enough for a crash course. He didn't pass with a monstrous margin. But he passed.

OP posts:
Coolas · 20/10/2014 23:19

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Original poster
LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 23:14

FSM are prioritised at this school as part of their over-subscription criteria.

Coolas, I understand what you mean about friends, but DS's friends are lovely kids, and he's gone all the way through his schooling so far with some of them (including his best friend) - since pre-school. It's not to say there wouldn't be lovely kids at the grammar, but it kind of feels like ditching old friends. (Sorry, bit sentimental!)

As for his work ethic, I think he gives work 100% in school - never any issues with his effort there. But I think he equates home with down-time. He's become a better self-starter with homework, but still needs nagging reminding fairly regularly. He generally does it last-minute. He'd rather do his own thing. I think he'll really resent homework taking over what bit of time he's got left at the the end of the day, and I don't think feeling tired and resentful is conducive to a good, happy education.

I went to a state primary and then a private school (Forces-subsidised) for secondary - and did really well. I therefore have no first-hand experience of what we're comparing here!

OP posts:
Momagain1 · 20/10/2014 23:08

Getting into the Grammar made my DHs life, it really did.

There may be a bursary from the school that could help with transport costs. but DH was quite proud of being able to manage the transport from his village into town and if he missed the train, he ran. Seriously, across the fields into the next village where he stood a good chance of catching another train coming up from the coast. And if he missed that, all the way to school and straight to headmasters office. His parents were split up and neither had a car, so, from age 11, being there and on time was entirely his lookout, there was no back up plan. Except running.

He ran every day at one point to train as a cross country runner, and was allowed to pocket the bursary, though with the expectation he buy a new uniform as his DM couldnt and his Dad wouldnt. I have seen pictures, it is sad how much too short it was. :(

Lazymama2 · 20/10/2014 23:06

Speak to your son's form teacher/teacher who knows him best as they can give you thier opinion as to what school would suit him best.

Check on the 11+ forum to see if there are coaches/car shares that go to the school.

An hour is a long way to travel for an 11 year old but not if there are other pupils also making the same journey and he wont be 11 for long!

And I know children who are travelling that far to go private at secondary.

Good luck to you son and well done!

Coolas · 20/10/2014 23:01

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Original poster
LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 22:56

Oh, and last year (typical year), the grammar took no kids on free school meals, even though had there been any, they would have been prioritised above most other applicants.

OP posts:
wigglylines · 20/10/2014 22:55

Ah, sorry, cross posts - I see he prefers the comprehensive. I think feeling comfortable with a school's ethos (the children as well as the parents) is very important too.

wigglylines · 20/10/2014 22:52

I went to a rigorously academic private secondary school, and changed to a pretty rubbish state secondary at 13. (I didn't get on with the ethos of the private school, although I was academic and I did enjoy the work.)

For me, it was the right thing to leave, but although I'm glad I left, I'm also glad I went to the private school first and had that experience, and solid academic start to my secondary education. I travelled the best part of an hour to both schools, it was fine.

Like other people have said, it'll be much easier to change from the grammar to the secondary if he doesn't like it, than the other way round. Education is something people can't take away from you, I would jump at the chance of giving my child access to an academically rigorous education, if I felt it suited them. (They're only little right now, no idea yet!)

Original poster
LegsBenedict · 20/10/2014 22:50

Thank you everyone for your posts. It's good to get some different, objective views, where we're so in the midst of it.

To clarify a few points raised, we are NOT in catchment for the grammar. No other kids from our area that we know go to the school (the geographical cut-off usually ends up being before our area).

We don't want to move. We love it where we live - it really is home - and I'm just about to invest in doing up the house, so have no intention of moving. I don't know if we could afford to either, as living nearer the grammar would be prohibitively expensive.

And the comprehensive DS likes (me too) is not our catchment school either. Our catchment school is a bit worse than average, needs improvement (whatever the Ofsted grade below 'good' is) and Ofsted singled it out for failing more able pupils. We're not entertaining it at all, for a few other reasons too.

The comprehensive we like is a bit further away but usually undersubscribed, because its catchment kids (affluent area) tend to get into the oversubscribed super-performing comprehensives in a nearby city - which is too far away for us. So the comprehensive DS has homed in on is a bit better than middling - better than our catchment school, but not in the league of the best ones in the county. It feels friendly - nice kids. It has a good reputation for SEN support (which is good but doesn't say much for how it would help DS). How do I find the 'value added' scores for each school? The grammar has no Ofsted reports online.

As suggested, I worry that DS would struggle in the grammar. He derives a fair bit of self-esteem from feeling capable at school and I'd hate him to lose that - to 'crumble', as one poster put it. But as other posters have said, he might thrive. It's a gamble. Atia, your son's situation sounds great. But I guess you live nearer to his school? My DS would have to be on the bus at 07:30, then home by 17:00 (if no extra-curricular stuff scheduled). He'd then need to eat and do homework - I wonder where the time is in a school day like that to play Xbox, chill out, see friends, train with his beloved football team. I worry about the work-life balance of it. I realise lots of kids do it, especially in big cities ... but aren't they knackered and frantic all the time? We're used to falling out the door and a five-minute stroll to the village school.

We have visited both schools. We liked both, though probably the comprehensive more for 'feel' and space. We've talked a lot about the pros and cons of each. DS would like to go to the comprehensive, but we'll talk some more over the next week or so before submitting the form. Obviously with my input, and having eliminated crap options, I feel it's largely down to him.

OP posts:
InfinitySeven · 20/10/2014 22:36

Go for the grammar.

He has shown enormous potential to pass with no training. You only get one shot at secondary school.

He'll get used to the commute.

CocktailQueen · 20/10/2014 22:34

I posted a very similar message earlier re my dd! Similar quandary. Watching with interest.

Coolas · 20/10/2014 22:33

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RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 20/10/2014 22:31

My DD's both go to a superselective over an hour's journey away. It has worked out very well for them (so far, DD1 is in Y12 but Dd2 is only Y7). It sounds as if your DS wanted to go to the grammar. That being the cases and his excellent achievement in passing the exam even though it was a late in the day decision to try, seems to indicate that maybe it is the school for him - but I do understand about the logistics issues as I live with similar issues myself. The girls are fine with the journey and the travel time, they love the bus (all the bus kids do) but it becomes an issue if one of them is sick or has a medical/dental appointment or a music exam - that's a full day off rather than an hour or so. And DD2 was unwell today and DH had to make a 2 hour round trip to bring her home which obviously was not a great result for him. Still, we all believe we made the right choice.