DS has unexpectedly passed 11+ - should we apply for grammar place or stick with comprehensive?

And although obviously stats matter, they aren't about the individual. If your ds is motivated and wants to do well, with the obvious support he has from you - he will (cohort affects stats hugely in comps, so you have to take that into account). At the same time, if you plump for the grammar and he isn't happy you could always move him in Y8.

Legs, I think, given the pros and cons seeming to balance fairly equally, and given that you both liked both schools - I would listen to my child's preference. Its your ds that needs to go there, live with the journey and the space and the education, and if he feels strongly about it when the time comes to put the paperwork in, that's what I would do.

I had the reverse situation with dd (11) who liked our local state, which is up and coming and very close, but fell in love with a not-too-faraway independent, took the exam and got in: I found it hard to choose, but she didn't!

Good luck with the decision, its so hard until its made and then I promise all the stress (mostly) lifts

Legs. I've dm ed you back and re read your op. I think you should do grammar. Def. also ask the comp what the boys results are. You'll find a big disparity

I'd be worried about quality rather than quantity with the GCSEs. Given that you think eight, maybe nine or ten, is a low number, however many do they take at the grammar? It's completely unnecessary and does them no favours to end up with piles of mediocre results. DD took ten. DS will take ten this year. That's completely standard for their extremely academic schools (most kids get close to straight A*s). Not to put too fine a point on it, schools which push kids into 13, 14, 15 and sometimes even more tend to be nowhere near as good as they want people to think they are and are pointsgaming on the "points per pupil" tables.

Is it a direct bus? My DS does a fair bit of his homework on the bus (he's also out of the door at 7.30 and back at 5). He's getting more time for evening activities as he gets older and bedtime gets later.

I'd plump for the grammar for the more rigourous and challenging education surrounded by dc of similar ability. He'll learn to use his commute time to do homework and read etc so not a bad thing really and the average secondary school commute at my ds1 school is 45 minutes on public transport and we are in the middle of a city.

What did you decide in the end, OP?

In a county of grammars and secondary moderns, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone choosing a secondary modern over a grammar if their child had qualified for the grammar. There is such a big difference! The percentage of children at the comprehensive getting 5 A* - C is less than my local secondary modern, OP, and we have 30% of children at the grammar school. I agree about the points score because our grammars are way over 400.

Please do not feel you are being "above" yourself if you decide to go to the grammar. These schools should be for everybody. This is how they were set up and you have every right to access that education for your DC if you so wish. We have no 6th form colleges here. I know they can work well but I do think it leaves the schools with a different ethos.

We're in the same boat!

DS passed the 11+ for a grammar in the next town (took the exam after taking a shine to it on the open day) and we have an outstanding comp which we are safely in the catchment for.

Our commute would be about half an hour (plus a 10 minute walk to the bus stop). The grammar bus gets back to our bus stop for about 430 which isn't too bad I guess.

As a previous poster has suggested, I guess that the comp is well within my comfort zone and the idea of the grammar scares me a bit.

DS has a great group of friends, most of whom will go to the comp. But as one of y friends pointed out, he could go to the comp and be in a totally different class to his "old" friends anyway so I imagine they will all we spread about.

DS has decided that he wants to go to the grammar so I am having to put my sentimental feeling aside on this one!

It's a tough one!!

God it's so hard isn't it,my dd has unexpectantly passed with same amount of practice as your Ds, shes adamant she doesn't want to go ,got her heart set on the comprehensive which is great if I'm honest more her,my Ds passed and is at all boys grammar but it's te right school for him never questioned it. I went to speak to her teacher and she advised to go with dd she will do well wherever but when I speak with other parents they look at me in horror that I'm not making her go feel like my head is spinning .

The Telegraph publish a GCSE league table which includes the average point score for pupils at schools in each region - I've just looked at Hampshire for example which is fully comprehensive and many of the scores are 390/400 plus for high achievers - this makes 324 seem quite low I'm afraid.

I sympathise with your dilemma, OP. I think the advice you've been getting on the proportion of As and A*s is important, rather than average point scores.

Can I also add another factor you've only alluded to: you mention working in the other direction. It isn't simply a matter of convenience. How will you manage to attend parent's evenings, school plays, special events (I've just returned from an impromptu 6th form evening at my son's comprehensive, 15 minutes away from home), let alone if there's an emergency.

I'm a firm believer that a smart kid will do well in a decent schooling environment and that for some, too hard a school can put you off. But the key here is 'decent': what's worked for my DS is that his school sets (you mention streaming, are you sure you don't mean setting), so he has moved through the school with a cohort of bright, motivated young boys and girls who have been almost as important as their teachers both for mutual assistance in working, but also as healthy competition to do well.

And there are real pro's of going to an excellent 6th form college too, so I wouldn't necessarily worry about that point too much at this stage :)

Yes, I would look at A/A for GCSE. There's a school near me that last year was trumpeting its "fantastic" 5A-C incl M&E percentage, but when I actually looked at the breakdown of grades for each subject, there were a lot of C's, and not many A's. 2 of my daughters go to a mn-style 'leafy comp', which get a similar 70+% 5A*-C incl M&E but that includes plenty of A's.

My dd2 got 8A* this summer. If she'd been at dd1's grammar it would have been at least 10, I have absolutely no doubt. The expectations are just so different, and being in that atmosphere all the way through makes a difference. And I really like my dd2 and dd3's school (dd2 still there for 6th form, dd3 has just started), and am perfectly happy that they're there, and it suits them. But ... the differences are very obvious.

LegsBenedict for somebody like your DS, he would be aiming for A/A grades for GCSE. It would be useful to compare the percentages of A|A in both schools (using something like the Guardian's GCSE table). A good grammar school achieves at least 50-60% (superselectives usually 80+%). An excellent comprehensive with mainly MC will be 25-30%.
It sounds on balance that the comprehensive would be better, particularly if he plays matches, but you need to make sure he can achieve those top grades there with the core academic subjects. If you end up by having to push him or think of tutoring then that would decrease his quality of life and might counterbalance the negatives of the journey.

I have just checked the top performing grammar schools in my County, and we have a county-wide selective education system, and found the best A level score is B+. These are not super selective though. The majority were B. Personally I am not keen on schools without 6th forms. I think 6th forms give younger children something to aspire to, excellent young people to act as role models and I think drama, music and sport can be seen to a much higher quality. I gather you are not guaranteed to get a place at the grammar, but I really would try.

An average A level grade of B is slightly above average even for a grammar school. Only the very exceptional grammar schools get higher. Comprehensives vary on average from about D- to C+ for A level grades.

There are of course exceptions with some comprehensives getting similar grades to the outstanding grammar schools. A B grade average is quite high even for a grammar school.

2 hours a day travel, plus staying late if he does sport, I would go for the comprehensive nearer home - he will then have friends etc nearer home.

Personally I'd say the grammar- your son sounds like just what they were looking for if he has passed with little prep :) I went to a grammar and it was great- not just an academic hothouse.

However, whatever you decide, put the schools in the order you genuinely want without worrying about hedging your bets and the risk of putting the grammar first and not getting in and losing your place at the comp. A previous poster mentioned this but it is not possible as all LEAs now have to use an equal preference system by law, so if you live near to the comp and put it second you will get a place ahead of someone who lives further away but put it first :-)

The high achievers are the "high achievers" irrespective of how many there are. Also high 980s for value added is not actually adding anything as it is below 1000. Nothing stunning there I'm afraid. They are actually taking away value and children achieve less than they should at both schools. I think you also have to take into account whether your DS would be better off working with more like minded and bright pupils. The comprehensive obviously has some, but you don't say what proportion of the cohort are high achievers and the fact that they achieve less good grades than the grammar suggests the number of A* and A grades are thin on the ground. I think more high achievers are getting Bs and Cs which brings the average down to B-. I would not be happy with this particular statistic. Can you compare each school subject by subject and especially at A level where A and B grades are the passport to the best universities? The GCSE statistic suggests few children will get As at A level.

Hi Legs

I would have been v. happy for ds2 to go to my bit better than average comp - he's bright, (level 5a English in Y6 sats and level 6 in maths) but would also be happy with his friends, joining the school football team and getting on with life.

Ds1 would have not thrived. He hates being bored and really struggles having to wait for others to catch onto ideas, when he has "got" them and is ready to move on. He now talks to me so much more than he ever did before, and gets into fabulously random discussions of anything he sees/reads about. I hadn't realised how bored he was until he found out about an alternative and went about applying for the entrance exams. He also used up his time getting into a bit of mischief - nothing serious - because he had always finished his work, so wanted something to do!

HTH

Sorry OP, you asked a way back how to look for the contextual data about the school. You can look on the OFsted data dashboard - if you just google that, and the school name, it should bring up the info.

The free school meals priority in admissions is because (presumably) the school is an academy. Academies are allowed to use FSM eligibility as an over-subscription criteria where their funding agreement allows this.

The reason I asked about stuff like FSM and SEN is because comprehensive schools are just that - comprehensive in their intake, or at least more comprehensive than grammars generally. That's why the raw 'attainment' scores are fairly meaningless as a measure of how good a school actually is. A good school brings children on, and does as well or better by its pupils as other similar schools. Comparing a grammar with a comp is comparing apples with pears.

What I am trying to say in a roundabout way is a bit like what admission said in a PP - the grammar school might not actually be a better school, it depends what measure you use to define 'better'.