mixed ability for English - just why?

Brenda:

Our school also is big on totally undifferentiated Year 7 with gradually increasing differntiation from Year 8 to fully differentatiated into sets in Year 9.

The school see it as a process and also see a responsiblity to parents of less able pupils to signal that secondary is a fresh start and to encourage them to take up the challenge of progressively more demanding work.

It's a noble experiment - and there clealry is a huge debate going on about the best way forward and what is truly meant by 'mixed ability teaching' (e.g. www.strath.ac.uk/media/faculties/hass/scilt/slr/issues/18/18_bremner.pdf)

I think the issue is that your DC isn't feeling particularly challenged by the tasks - so perhaps the trick here is to encourage her to make the tasks more interesting. If it's taking the class two hours to write a single paragraph - why not see how many different ways you can write this paragraph. Maybe even look about for a dictionary or a thesaurus.

It will also get her noticed - which is no bad thing.

senua, there is some evidence, but it's tenuous and open to picking apart.

Oh, just realised I've posted this in the wrong thread, I was thinking original poster was the mum with the DD struggling because of Streaming situation where she was in top Maths group because she was good at English. Sorry! Yes, still a problem but probably not such a damaging one. I would find out when and if they do plan to set for English. I think my DCs were set from Year 8.

Secondary schools seem so suspicious of Year 6 SATs results that I sometimes wonder if there's any point in the kids taking them. DS2's Maths teacher at the beginning of year 7, smiled patronisingly at him when he said he had Level 6 Maths, graded him down and then a term later marked him up to where he had been and made a big deal at parents evening about what great progress he'd made in her class.

OP, your DD's school may be good in many respects but it is failing her at the moment. They need to know this and adapt their rather rigid system. Don't let it go until they do!

Surely that must depend on the age and the stage - and how it's done. e.g. I can't see a very mixed ability GCSE maths class working too well.

Yes, they did setting for Maths and Science (that, traditionally, boys do better in than girls. The girls coped, cos they are more mature). It makes perfect sense.

What is the evidence that setting causes all pupils to underperfrom?

There is a lot of evidence that Setting actually causes all pupils to under perform.

I personally think mixed ability is often better, but if teachers aren't committed to and don't know how to teach mixed ability then setting is probably better.

Primary with higher pupil-teacher ratios appear to be much quicker at their re-assessments than secondary.

They may have (slightly) more in a class, but it's usually just the one, whereas the secondary teachers will have lots of classes at various stages.

Did they set in maths senua?

DD's school didn't set in English until they reached GCSE. When I asked the Headmaster about this he said that it was because girls tended to be more advanced in English than boys. If he setted in Y7 then the top sets would be overwhelmingly female and if the boys saw this then it would damage their self-esteem. boo hoo.
The girls had to wait for the boys to mature and catch up.

@NancyJones "some children really are [at their alleged end-primary level - Ed.] and therein lies the biggest problem for secondary schools."

At primary DD was "re-levelled" reasonably quickly every year. My Y5 teacher friend from another school always grumbles about this or that problem with the previous teacher's end-year levels.

They obviously see the children most of the week, but there are only so many Literacy and Numeracy slots in the timetable. Primary with higher pupil-teacher ratios appear to be much quicker at their re-assessments than secondary.

Ofsted appear to be interested in this now.

Same thing at our school for all subjects. I was quite displeased when DD started and really felt it was going to be a waste of year for her as her levels at the end of primary were high. It got better through the year though. I discussed it with her teachers just after Christmas time and they acknowledged she needed challenging more. They stuck to it and she did came home saying that she was given more work, and that her teachers were spending time with her when she was finished with a piece of work before the rest of the class. She is now in Y10 and she has progressed regularly over the years as expected after leaving Y6.

My DS has now started at the same school, he too is very advanced, but I am not concerned that he will be held back as a result of not being streamed in Y7.

I think op has a point. We had same in y7. As they teach 3 English lessons a week I think there is capacity to offer some setting. My dd school sets for maths and languages so not sure why not English. I decided to take her to plays myself.

It seems like the schools should be spending the first few weeks assessing the children then.

Yes, it's a massive issue. Not all the fault of secondary schools though. They are taking kids from a host of primaries all doing things differently. The 'very bright' cohort from one feeder may be nowhere near the 'very bright' cohort from another.

There is also the problem of inflated SATS grades. Children turning up with supposed L5s when all that means is that they were obsessively crammed to pass a SATS paper rather than them being a genuine, solid L5. Of course some children really are and therein lies the biggest problem for secondary schools.

There is also the doctrine which says 'I am teaching Y7 therefore I will teach the Y7 curriculum to all. They can do Y8 stuff in Y8'. You see this with some teachers at primary too. It's crap but it exists.

@NancyJones, my view is that primary-secondary transition is a national disaster story in terms of efficiency.

I don't believe this is especially new though e.g. I found a quote from some HT's organization from a couple of decades ago where they admitted there was a problem, but then questioned whether it mattered.

Y7 DD's difficulty rating for her mixed-ability English classes is 4/10, although it's worth noting that she gave the same score to top set maths (which is the only subject that is set in Y7).

I don't know why either. There were no sets at her primary, just a bit of table grouping and differentiation by outcome etc., but they did so much more at a much higher level (or at least all the highers and some of the middlies did). The work I've heard about sounds so patronising and it feels like they've wound the clock back to before upper-KS2.

I'm giving them this half-term before I get too twitchy, but it's core subject English so you just can't ignore it.

Good point BustiKate.

I think you should say something to the school, but perhaps wait till parents' evening and think carefully about how you say it.

Ultimately, I think many state schools fall down on differentiating for high ability kids. It's what helps to keep grammar schools and privates in business.

I assume neither of those was an option for you, so you have to make the best of your situation as it is. I know some families with high ability kids at the local comp who are supplementing with tutoring not to "catch kids up," or "give them an edge," but just to keep them engaged and stimulated.

Sounds like they are concentrating on 'Speaking and listening' for the first half term. They did this at D's school; I couldn't understand why his grades jumped from mid 5s in y6 to 6a at Xmas in Y7. Soon dropped back when he had to actually write something!
Speaking coherently and listening actively are relevant English skills.

I would wait until after half term to say something perhaps? The impression I get in our school (DD1 has just started Y7) is that the new Y7s have had so much new stuff to take on board to adjust to, they are keeping homework and class discussions fairly easy and 'fun' for now. DD1's "worst subject" seems to change from week to week at the moment, and I am just adopting a breezy "well, it's early days" attitude to any complaints!

If they set for Maths, Science and French, why not English? Sounds an odd policy to me because English is key to so many other subjects so why not accelerate those who can do the work? I also object to young children being used to aid the teaching of other children when there is such a wide range of ability. Working in groups of similar ability is different.

Do you know, Brenda, how well students do in a English at GCSE and A level at this school? Do the school's statistics show excellent progress in this subject? You can find out this information and then judge if not setting is no barrier to excellent results. I would not just accept what the school says.

If the school policy is set on stone on this, perhaps the best thing you can do is vent here but don't do anything to reinforce your DD's (understandable) negativity. Try to think how to encourage her to get as much out of the lessons as she can - either directly (along the lines mummytime suggested) or by encouraging her to really engage with helping her classmates. My DD isn't in particularly mixed ability classes but there's always something of a mix or someone having a mental block, and she says she finds helping her friends can improve her own understanding. (she's yr11 so maybe it requires a bit of maturity to realise this).