mixed ability for English - just why?

Look I get the 'being concerned' & Brenda I completely support your frustration and your DC's. If doing more quietly herself isn't on and speaking up in class isn't going to happen - all I can suggest is you make an appointment to discuss this with the teacher (unless you're going to have a parent/ teacher meeting shortly).

In the meantime Brenda: here are some links to free websites with additional resources/ ideas for English (as this is your DC's interest) - I know doing more at home isn't ideal - but for right now perhaps doing more at home might sustain your DC's interest in the subject & help her improve:

Channel 4's Homework High: www.channel4learning.com/apps/homeworkhigh/english/index.jsp

BBC Bitesize KS3 English: www.bbc.co.uk/education/subjects/z3kw2hv

more ideas here: www.webanywhere.co.uk/education/teaching-resources/secondary/literacy

Hertfordshire Grid For Learning KS3 resources: www.thegrid.org.uk/learning/english/ks3-4-5/ks3/index.shtml

Bishop Thomas Grant School KS3 Literacy resources: www.btg.ac/pages/websites-for-ks3-literacy-

I totally agree this isn't ideal - but perhaps some of this can continue her progress/ interest in English until things improve in her present English class or streaming/ setting comes in in future years of KS3 at her senior school.

I know we have very different view on education - but regardless I sincerely hope that it all works out well for you & your DC.

Signing off with apologies this became so heated a discussion

PSBD

past sorry but what you're describing is a poor education for a high ability student.

It's not what I want for my DC. Fortunately their schools provide something far superior.

The OP is not in that position. She is right to be concerned.

I don't think I said anywhere that a child should self-educate - what I said is that education is a two-way street - and you don't sit there passively receiving wisdom - you may have to get up and find a book to learn more, or practice to get better at calculation skills or receipting lines from Shakespeare. I also believe that any task is open ended - you can put more into it - if you want to....

What I would say is there are points when tasks are easy - and maybe it's a bit Arts and Crafts movement to take pride and pleasure in your work and to make each piece of work a little treasure - but you can make the most of any learning opportunity....

DD1, for example, is in her mixed ability Y7 class having achieved NC L6 on KS2 SATs (thank you Mathsfactor!) The class is organised with a little plenary where the teacher explains what they're doing and maybe a calculation skill. Maybe a game or activity to reinforce the idea and then children are set to work - all given the same worksheet and a challenge problem. Like Brenda's DC the teacher is frequently busy helping the less able pupils do the work.

DD1 has finished this maths worksheet every time in class, including the 'challenge' problem. She's done just as Brenda's DC has done - 'Maths is a bit of a disappointment Mum' - 'I'm a bit bored'.

So I've suggested she does a proof of every problem - it's good method anyway - she now tries to work the problems she's been set backwards and it has caught a few howlers.

She has not been able to check all her work in the time and I've not insisted she complete that - but it's all there for the teacher to see.

I've told her she needs to speak to the teacher - because she actually would like homework in maths or at least access to My Maths (where she can carry on with Level 6 lessons independently) - she's agreed the best day is when it's the last class and she can stay after and quietly ask a question without everybody there or having to rush to another class.

I'm leaving it to her to pursue this because the school bumph (and this is an ordinary state comprehensive) is that they want to make 'independent' learners of the children and that they are encouraged to ask questions about work & further challenge.

I put it to you that Brenda's DC could do more with her paragraph assignment - it's not upsetting the apple cart - I seriously doubt it will upset the teacher - and she may just benefit.

It's like a child in gymnastics. One kid will sit there by the side moping until it's their turn on the bars or beam whilst another will go off to the side and practice hand stands, back bends, etc.... improving further all the while.

I prefer that child off to the side.

So if children are supposed to self-educate without the help of the teacher, wouldn't it save quite a lot of money to sack the teachers and replace them with classroom supervisors?

Those are important skills, but not the ones that DC are supposed to be acquiring in English class.

Oh dear....

Being inventive - coming up with solutions - is an important skill.

I'm afraid - I see it differently - sitting there like a dollop - not asking yourself, a friend or the teacher what more can be done - but waiting for someone to tell you what to do is creepy.

Would you really want to employ someone that doesn't get up to help a customer at the counter unless you specifically instruct them do so?

I agree wholeheartedly with your last post, TheWordFactory.

The last thing I want is for my DC to have to reinvent the task set by teachers in order to stave off boredom.

It is not for a child to complicate the task at hand because the task is too easy.

In fact I would go so far as to say that encouraging DC to complicate simple tasks is a very bad idea.

Brenda:

genuinely - if the issue is boredom at the writing task - then please encourage your daughter to twist the assignment to make it more interesting.

It isn't creepy to say I've finished the task Mr/Ms X - what would you like me to work on next? If it's uncomfortable - raise it after class on your own.

What I'm saying though is that writing - if English is your child's interest - is a muscle that can be stretched in a myriad of ways:

vocabulary
style
grammar devices
etc...

And it isn't being a 'tiger mother' to suggest that a gentle push to think about the assignment a bit differently - write about the contents of the pencil case - but then suggest that each item can fit together to be a robot or when you lift them out there's a portal to another dimension or whatever...

Write a paragraph on X - isn't 3-5 sentences and timed.

Sitting there bored in class isn't necessary.

Most senior schools spend a lot of time in KS2 on developing 'independent learners' - and Brenda here's your DC's chance. Encourage her to find out what more she can be doing with the task.

Are you really sure that your child's work is the very best in the school?

If other children are spending 3 days on this - and you've got to presume that at least a couple kids are as bright as your DC - then has your DC missed something in the assignment?

Personally when DD1 comes home and said she finished a report in class and doesn't need to work on it over the weekend - alarm bells are ringing. I know that it will be overly brief. Full of spelling errors & monosyllabic vocabulary. Probably just off Wikipedia - with no real effort to look for more information - dare I suggest go to the school library and see what they have on the topic. Dread to think through whether it's stream of consciousness or structured and personally feel had she spent a bit more timing on planning and organisation and finished it at home it would have been a better piece of work.

but hey - I'm a tiger Mum.

fizzymittens/ duhgldiuhfdsli/ etc...

who has said my suggestion that a pupil should be proactive is unrealistic - can I remind all of you this is a parent complaining that in class the assignment week after week is to write a paragraph - the child is completing said task swiftly and just sitting there. This has been happening for several weeks apparently.

I am not saying that it doesn't take a skilled teacher to start the process of thinking about writing styles/ genres critically nor am I saying that a teacher needs to structure lessons and assign tasks that can challenge all ability levels

but...

I am saying that an assignment to write a descriptive passage is not beneath BrendaBlackhead's DC & shouldn't be perceived as 'boring'.

Maybe it's just me - but I think it is concerning that an allegedly highly able child (just going on Brenda's word) can't do more with such an assignment.

I take the point that you all clearly feel the teacher needs to notice Brenda's DC has been finishing early and come over a suggest another task - but I'd like to argue that in this situation learning to be proactive can really help:

Trying something additional yourself

Raising your hand and asking the teacher what next

Asking someone beside you who's finished the work but seems to be carrying on with something what they're doing now

these all strike me as reasonable approaches to this situation.

Again, I seriously doubt that the English teacher is never going to teach grammar or literary criticism - and I suspect that there will be several books that the class will read together as a whole and ye olde Shakespeare play will probably be thrown into the mix.

I totally understand Brenda's concern - I'd be concerned too, especially if this was my child's favourite subject and she's now disappointed/ bored with the class. But 'disappointment/ boredom' is also up to you - if you want to do more - try doing more/ try asking what can I do next/

It's the attitude I find disappointing.

There was a time (admittedly the 19th century) when self-educating was seen as a virtue - and libraries were founded to help 'ordinary workers' in Britain to access knowledge, read for pleasure, read for interest. We've rather lost that knack through interest to be self-motivated enough to do more ourselves I fear.

Of course the teacher is going to have to guide Brenda's DC through her first Shakespeare play - iambic pentameter, comedies vs. tragedies, historic setting (both the plays & writing for Elizabethan court) etc...

But Brenda's DC could explore modern twists of Romeo & Juliet (West Side Story/ Shakespeare in Love/ Lion King II/ Dirty Dancing/ etc... www.swide.com/art-culture/movies/best-top-10-romeo-and-juliet-movie-adaptations-ever/2013/07/22) and consider what makes this such a brilliant/ timeless story. She may even consider going and seeing a live performance herself (with a bit of help from Brenda of course) or try to persuade the teacher to organise a field trip to Stratford/ The Globe/ etc....

-------

In terms of University admittance it's never solely those pupils achieving AAA or As* at A-Levels - yes for the elite I'm sure - but as we all know you can also go to Wolverhampton, Worcester, Aberystwyth, Bucks New University, London Met or Loughborough - and it can be as much about being an elite athlete, a skilled musician, a talented actor, a keen young farmer, as anything else. FE Colleges also offer ACCESS Courses - for those who have failed to perform well at A-Level (for whatever reason) or indeed never sat A-Levels. And of course there's Open University.

By the way Physics at Aberystwyth is B(Maths) /B(Physics)/ C (English or Welsh) at A-Level & Childhood studies requires only a Grade C in GCSE English/ Welsh.

I think some of you are a bit out of touch. Many Universities are struggling to fill places and so radically lower the published UCAS tariff for entry when it comes to it. There are just over 90 'Universities' + the Open University of course (which anyone regardless of A-Level grades can take courses from - more info here: www.open.ac.uk/choose/change/how-does-ou-study-work).

I can also assure you that out of 30 arts undergraduates/ 100 science undergraduates we're lucky if one or two go on to be an academic in the field. Many go on to do something related - so study science at University and then work in research & development for a company or go on teach. Sometimes the higher A-Level threshold for entry is about investment in training - so for medical or legal degrees - it's about ensuring that the vast majority go on to practice law or medicine (if not study further to specialise or explore research interests).

"At University all teaching is mixed ability"

What?! The English university entrance process is fantastically selective!

Agree re KS2 levels Agg.

I work at a secondary and we don't set in English until after the first half term simply because of the unreliability of KS2 levels. We used to end up making huge changes in sets at half term and it caused all sorts of upset. However the curriculum is both challenging and differentiated carefully. All pupils study the same novel and have just completed four assessments looking at the strands of the new National Curriculum.
I have spent the weekend sorting the sets out and it is very interesting comparing our marks with the levels they came in on. One girl who came in on 3a is in top set having impressed all, scored 15.6 in reading age and 14.4 in spelling amongst other tests. She is just such a perfectionist it slows her down. If we had set on entry she would have spent weeks in set 4/4. Also quite a few who came in on 4a, often boys, have ended in set 1 whereas quite a few 5cs have gone into set 2. The fact is now we know our sets are correct for the moment although we check places every half term.
However OP I think your situation sounds very poor. I would suggest asking to meet the HOD, make sure you have your daughter's exercise book so you can discuss the tasks set and ask about the rationale behind them. Good luck.

Past your post is ridiculous. It is not down to an 11 year old to teach themselves! And calling pupils 'wet' is just unpleasant.

I teach in a super selective independent and we still set despite having very a very high ability intake. This is so that all pupils are taught, pushed and achieve at a high level. There is no hiding place which there would be in a mixed ability set. I spent many years teaching English in comps with a mixed ability ethos and although good teachers can make the best of it, is not ideal and as I said previously, very often the highest ability pupils miss out.

And on another note, you are clearly a supportive parent who is keeping a close eye on her child's education which you discuss at home etc. What about those pupils who are massively bright but come from unsupportive homes and do not have a parent offering them strategies to teach themselves because they are outstripping the class? These 'wet' children are being failed by the school aren't they?

past I completely disagree with you.

Calling bright 11 year olds wet because they can't essentially educate themselves quietly whilst everyone else is taught is ludicrous.

Schools that set rigorously and selective schools provide a collegiate environment of appropriate like ability peers.

Bright pupils need to be properly challenged.

And frankly it is absurd to call university education mixed ability. Most of the very best are highly selective.

At University all teaching is mixed ability

Yeah, over the wide and challenging range of "people with AAA at A Level" and "people with AAB at A Level".

By the same argument, presumably, super-selective grammar schools are mixed ability, as few set.

NancyJones:

I hear you - and don't get me wrong - I'm rather concerned about no maths homework at the moment for DD1 (also new Y7) becuase the teacher assumes it isn't possible to finish the worksheet & challenge problem in class.

No it isn't good for Brenda's or your child to sit there doing nothing - but oddly enough I think education is at least a two-way relationship - teacher & pupil.

So, feeding back, either the pupil themselves or via you through your parent comments in your DC's planner that DC is finding the class a bit slow and is completing worksheets entirely in class and therefore has no homework, etc.... expressing concern at parent/ tutor or parent/ teacher meetings...is your way of putting the pressure on the school to also differentiate for your higher ability child.

With English - which was the example. It is rather 'wet' to just sit there after finishing a paragraph - proverbially staring at the wall. A more proactive approach with the assignment describe the classmate beside you - is to play a game with the task:

version 1: straightforward description
version 2: description with flowery language
version 3: description as rhyming couplets
version 4: science fiction style description
version 5: mystery style description
version 6: use a thesaurus & re-write version 1 with more elaborate descriptive words.
version 7: write it in the style of a favourite author
version 8: write it in terms of the person next to you's inner thoughts
version 9: Romantic/ gothic description

etc....

And that was the point I was trying to make.

At present, as I said, DD1 is finding worksheets in maths class just review stuff she knows - so she came home & complained and I said - right how can you make that more challenging. No mistakes & less time? So DD1 is now trying to complete the worksheet in

As a teacher I would argue that there is a case for mixed ability teaching in certain subjects but English would not be one of them. Mixed ability teaching just does not work in this subject and very often teachers teach to the middle and the weakest and the strongest get ignored. Sadly in state schools resources are not targeted at the high achievers and they end up bored and lacking in motivation very quickly. Setting and proper targeted teaching is where more academic schools have the edge.

What is the evidence that setting causes all pupils to underperfrom?

Most educational research is small samples, unblinded, with no control groups and no randomisation. That's inevitable: it's impossible to, for example, blind the teachers and the pupils as to whether a particular strategy or intervention is in use. But just because it's not possible to do education research that isn't (methodologically) weaker than a weak thing doesn't get away from the problem that (methodologically) it's weaker than a weak thing. Most of the studies on mixed ability versus setting are as good as could be done, but still for practical purposes no better than a few random numbers whacked through ANOVA.

I sympathise - I know my DS would do the bare minimum given such a task. Very fortunately for him this isn't his experience at school and he loves English - because for him the learning experience is challenging /stimulating and therefore enjoyable. I have a Dnephew who is in a school where GCSE English is taught in semi mixed ability (anyone who is likely to achieve a C or above). My DN is on target for an A* but finds the subject a total waste of time - I.e it's a very dull learning experience for him. IMO just because the results are better doesn't mean it's a good way to teach all the DC.

When DF and I had to do something dull in English at secondary, we would do the task really badly and then write lengthy pieces of free verse about the cruel crushing of our creativity by The (Wo)Man. Tell your dd to get the task done and then do something interesting that doesn't disrupt the class.

Do they set later on in the school? DD1's secondary didn't set until year 10 (all classes except maths,PE and tech were in form classes until year 10) but they get 70-80% A*-A at GCSE.

PastSellByDate, what about their responsibility to the more able children to hit the ground running and keep them progressing at the sand pace they have been. It's almost like they're saying, ' they've done really well and they'll do well at GCSE so they can afford to coast for a while to enable better attainment for those behind them academically.' Well bollocks to that is my opinion both as a parent and a teacher.