mixed ability for English - just why?

Oh dear - I had hoped that things would settle down.

I hope that the parent/ teacher meeting helps.

PSBD

Hi Brenda:

Don't want to dig up old arguments - but was wondering if things are going better for your DD now?

I hope so.

PSBD

Really Not/ Raisin?

Are you now going to say that giving an example of a L6 extension - which is to write a paragraph using the five words you chose (aimed at me of course) in 5 different ways wasn't your version of an appropriately differentiated task for that ability....

You've posted plenty here on MN without full facts at your disposal - why are you changing the habits of a lifetime now?

What are you talking about?

Thankfully I am off to work.

Raisin/ Not:

L6 extension; write it 5 different ways - I believe that is your example of what you consider a L6 appropriate extension (aimed at me or not/ glib or not).

duh:

You're assuming quite a bit.

First, both DH and I are products of comprehensive state funded education system (England and USA) - ordinary primaries and secondary comprehensives with non-selective admission by catchment. Maybe we were lucky but we were both educated in an environment where you could have a bit of fun whilst learning and questions in class were positively encouraged, indeed rewarded. We have very fond memories of our 'school days'.

I have absolutely nothing to do with University of Birmingham free school - and for us it wasn't even an option - DD1 is currently in Year 7 - the school hasn't even opened yet. I guess it will next school year - but so far its just a building site. I'm not even clear what the catchments out of Selly Oak will be and if we'd even be in one. DD2 is Y5 - so I've got a while before I consider her secondary options, but she's very keen to just join her sister at her senior school.

I think you are assuming a lot. Including that a University lecturer couldn't possibly be educated at ordinary state maintained primaries/ comprehensives.

I don't think a secondary English teacher will ALWAYS give detention if a student bends an assignment.... but I can see that's been your experience and I can understand your concerns for Brenda's DC in light of such a negative experience.

All I can say is that I don't know what the English teacher is like - but I don't think these assignments are too easy and I think Brenda & her DC need clarification.

I think it is a real shame duh that if you have children you're going to discourage them from ever asking a question in class. It's a powerful tool in learning - and it's a shame not to use it.

From Raisin aka notinaminute depending on which log in I can remember at which time

*"I'm slightly perplexed by your 'solution'?"

Past I was offering no solution to the OP's daughter - I would not be so bold as to, without the full facts at my disposal.

That assignment was meant for you! It was sarcasm. Perhaps it was too subtle?!

Next time I will employ the use of very large hammer to make my point!

*"I'm slightly perplexed by your 'solution'?"

Past I was offering no solution to the OP's daughter - I would not be so bold as to, without the full facts at my disposal.

That assignment was meant for you! It was sarcasm. Perhaps it was too subtle?!

Next time I will employ the use of very large hammer to make my point!

feels it would be creepy to seek help/ clarifications/ advice in class from a teacher or to discuss their work/ approach with another classmate.

You've not spent a lot of time in comprehensive school classrooms, have you? Indeed, I'll guess you've spent no time in comprehensive school classrooms whatsoever.

Yes, attempting to extend tasks will piss off the teacher. Yes, it will deeply piss off your classmates. No, it's no way to make friends. That you from the perspective of (I'm guessing) being a lecturer at Birmingham think these things aren't true just makes me hope you're nothing to do with Free School project.

Raisin:

Maybe it's me - but with the exception of referencing Chaucer I'm sincerely struggling to see how you're suggestion of what NC L6 differentiated material is any different from what I was suggesting in earlier posts to Brenda.

Having previously told me that doing something like this with an assignment would either

piss off the teacher or result in detention

I'm slightly perplexed by your 'solution'?

-----

If I've opined - and I admit being verbose - it's because two things angered me:

1. That Brenda & others felt the assignment wasn't appropriately difficult for NC L6 ability pupil

2. That many have posted here assuming that the problem was bad teaching.

I don't enjoy the role of Devil's advocate - but I do see in my day to day work too many students who were high flyers in secondary really struggle at University because of very inflexible approaches to tasks and almost need hand holding through assignments (essays/ lab books/ posters/ oral presentations). So many just don't get that a reading list is a 'starting point' not 'all you have to do'. So many just don't get that there is no right or wrong answer. So many just don't get that there is a structure to these things of course, but you have complete autonomy in designing your essay/ talk/ power point presentation/ etc....

And my passionate arguments that these assignments Brenda described could be really fun & challenging for a 'highly able Y7' - was about mindset - both the implicit concept in Brenda's posts that the teacher was somehow at fault for not explicitly explaining in great detail what was expected (which I have some issues with - and I think is restrictive to creativity) and more importantly - that a student who has every right to ask as many questions as necessary if confused/ perplexed - feels it would be creepy to seek help/ clarifications/ advice in class from a teacher or to discuss their work/ approach with another classmate.

More than anything else I feel sorry for the teacher - who many here have vilified - joining Brenda in assuming their teaching/ assignments are poor quality (a more pejorative word was used on several occasions). I get that there are horrible teachers out there - and this may well be one of those instances - but I don't know for sure.

PSBD

Brick Wall, talking to, I quit, repetition.

Include the above into a grammatically correct sentence. L6 extension; write it 5 different ways and perhaps use a bit of Chaucer's finest. How's that for an assignment past?

De-railing the thread now so I bid it farewell!

Raisin:

first off - Brenda posted: She now says English is really disappointing and it's her worst lesson by far. - she went on to say more in subsequent posts about her DD just sitting there bored/ dreading having the class that day/ etc.... So I don't think it's unfair of me to interpret this as a fairly miserable experience for Brenda's poor DC.

I think this task is appropriate. That's my opinion - but it is right there on BBC Bitesize KS3 materials/ resources (www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/standard/english/lit_form/descriptive/revision/3/)- Hertfordshire grid for learning KS3 English descriptive writing tasks are virtually identical.

I'm not sure how you differentiate a task like this - I'd love to know what you'd suggest Raisin. Personally I think the differentiation is in the execution of the task - any ability can access this assignment - but the resulting paragraph will clearly vary in terms of the quality of the student's writing skills.

this and *is

...and frankly is making English rather a misery for herself.

Where has the OP said that English lessons are a misery? She says her DD is disappointed in them at present and has clearly stared the reasons why.
Past You have then gone on to make unfair assumptions about an 11year old's character.

You seem content to opine at considerable length interpreting posts to suit your viewpoint, offering 'solutions' that will do one or both of the following:-

1. piss off the teacher for not doing the work as assigned.
2. secure a detention for the child as her actions could be seen as challenging the teacher's authority.

It is of no consequence that you, an adult, do not view "these assignments as dull." Are you so devoid of empathy that you cannot see that an 11 year old a month into secondary, may find the work dull? And crucially is not yet equipped with the confidence or language to remedy thus by extending the task themselves. She us 11 for pity's sake!

I'm sure the OP and her daughter do lots of extension type activities at home. At school she can reasonably expect the work set by a subject specialist to be appropriately differentiated to provide suitable challenge.

The only person blaming anyone is YOU! Your preachiness is insulting. It is also surprising since you have spent the last few years outlining at great length the perceived failings at your own child's primary.

Gosh, I wish you well OP - I hope you raise your concerns with the school and see an improvement. English, taught well, is the most fabulous subject.

sorry that should have been...

enjoy English AT her new secondary school.

Brenda -

My apologies - I was talking to whoever posted to me that this was all the teacher's fault - which made me really angry.

I don't see these assignments as dull.

I think it is hugely unfortunate that you and your daughter do.

You don't have to see these tasks as 'too easy' - or less than NC L6 ability. You're choosing to see them in that light. Your DC is choosing to presume she can't do much with these tasks (for whatever reason) - and frankly is making English rather a misery for herself. And guess what - the teacher had nothing whatsoever to do with that decision.

I hope that you and your DC will talk with the teacher and this misunderstanding can get cleared up and your DC can go on to really enjoy English as her new secondary school.

OP have you had a chance to speak with school yet about the English lessons?

I have just spent too long reading this whole thread and I am frankly appalled that some, well Past, seem to think that it is some failing in your daughter (and by extension you) that she is not enjoying her English lessons and not getting out of them all she could.

Your DD should not have to extend tasks, invent tasks or broaden tasks set by her teacher. The teacher should be appropriately differentiating work to suit the whole ability range and providing extension activities when required.

My DS is more able in English. He is also y7. He would no more extend a specific task set by the teacher in class, than stand on the desk reciting Hamlet's soliloquy! He is not lazy, he is not "wet", he is not unmotivated.

He is 11!

Good luck OP. I hope it improves for your DD.

Thanks Kestrel. The blog post to which you linked matches my experience as a parent. For my two particular children, there simply isn't enough practice. They skim over things; think they know; and what they don't know is never shown up and bottomed out.

But, this is a thread about English! So, apologies Brenda

Toomanyhouseguests

You might be interested in this article by a teacher interested in research:
"Reform vs traditional maths: which is better?" websofsubstance.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/conclusive-evidence-on-reform-maths-perhaps/

their teaching methods, especially for maths are very traditional, with a lot of emphasis on direct instruction, worked examples, and practice. Similar things could be said about Shanghai teaching methods.

This cannot come soon enough for my DC. I am frustrated beyond belief with the maths curriculum. We are looking very seriously at going private next year for year 7 onwards, and the lack of solid maths is a big reason for us as parents.

Of course, I realise that just about any method can work with a great teacher, but the problem is that teachers are only human and some are better than others. Not every year is a great year. Teaching maths in a logical, systematic way would allow us as parents to help our DDs more when they weren't "getting it." At the moment, by the time we realise they don't understand something, the train has moved on. It also leads my DDs to think it doesn't matter if you don't learn something in maths because in a few days they will be onto something completely different that they might prefer. It's not easy to convince a 7 year old that they really will need times tables in life, or a 10 year old that dividing numbers with decimals is a basic skill.

Quite. You can have "we should look to Finland and China". Or you can have "away with nasty direct instruction, Jo Boaler is our leader". You cannot have both.