Further Maths A level- why?

I did FM because I liked maths and my friend persuaded me to do it with her!

OK, thanks all! He's doing it via the online FurtherMaths site so has already signed up for those specific modules, but I'll suggest he invests in an FP2 textbook.

In terms of which FM maths modules to study in a gap year, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever whether it's a MEng or a BEng degree!

FP1 and FP2 cover a lot of the maths which used to be in A-level single maths (and is covered in a first year 'Maths for physics/engineering' course).
M3 is definitely worth looking at (although the syllabi for the higher mechanics modules get quite technical/challenging). Statistics in general is relevant to engineering, but FP2 is probably more useful than S3.

Bird FP2 has differential equations. Hard to imagine the engineering discipline where that's not useful.

MEng or BEng? Birdinthewings. MEng are likely to strongly prefer Further Maths, whatever the engineering discipline.

DS is self-studying it in his gap year. Although he has a university engineering offer without it, he's the kind of chap who likes to be sure he can cope.

I wish I'd asked here which modules he would be advised to pick though, as I think he's gone for FP1, S3(?) and M3 rather than FP1 and FP2.

DD is doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics & Chemistry because she loves Maths (just as well, as tomorrow 3 out of her 4 lessons are Maths), and she is hoping to do Maths at Uni - though I think she can keep her options open and consider engineering, physics etc with that combination of A levels. She did Further Maths at GCSE in the last two terms of Yr 11 and really enjoyed it which I think has given her a good start at AS.

DS is doing it mainly because he really loves maths… (and is thinking of doing something economics related at university, possibly combined with more maths).

To be fair, it was a pretty small school, in a 'challenging' catchment, so I'm unsurprised that so few students wanted to study Maths for Alevel.

My current school has 3 classes of Maths and one class of Further Maths in both AS and A level. We get excellent results and are in no danger of ever losing Further Maths, although we may have to go down to 2 classes of single Maths some years, depending on numbers (and whether we're allowed to increase our entry requirements to an A at GCSE)

DDs' school has lots taking A level maths just not the further maths. Year 13 does have a further maths class but only 4 or 5 left in it after AS level. The AS results in normal maths were very good. DD1 got an A. I think at least 20 got an A out of about 60 that took it - the teaching is very good. That is why it is disappointing that DD2 cannot do further maths in lessons. The school discourage the students from taking more than 4 AS levels which I think is one of the reasons why hardly any selected further maths.

Dragonlette I'm gobsmacked at that. No wonder there is an engineering skills crisis.

I did a Maths degree without FM Alevel (and got a first :)). My school couldn't run the course because so few people wanted to do it. That's still the case for a lot of schools, there aren't enough pupils wanting to do Further Maths to make it a viable subject to run. Some schools barely manage to get enough students to make Maths Alevel viable, I know my last school only ever had 5 students for A2 Maths, and it was a fight every year to be allowed to still run it.

My previous post was incorrect. DD's school did have it as an option but as only 4 pupils selected it, the course has not run. Hence DD is self-studying it to AS level.

The first year of a physics degree is very very difficult without further maths, that's why I became a Biochemist

Some schools don't offer further maths.

And then invent complex conspiracy theories as to why their pupils' applications are rejected out of hand from certain courses. it's a real failure of British education: the idea that "people like that" don't need to study A Levels that actually lead somewhere.

Some schools don't offer further maths. My DD2 is self-studying it at AS level.

A-level maths was dumbed down. Back in 2004 they removed a load of content and put it in further maths because A-level maths take-up had fallen disastrously low as it was seen to be too hard post-curriculum 2000.

Therefore any mathematical degree at university should require further maths as well as maths, and any sciencey or social sciencey sort of degree should require a-level maths as that's the sort of levels they're suitable for.

However, unis haven't updated their lists of requirements so you get kids going to do geography or whatever having done no maths since they were 16 and kids going to study maths, engineering or physics without further maths. Then unis complain that the kids aren't good enough at maths and that they have to put catch-up classes on.

I did it and went on to study electrical engineering, but it would be useful for any engineering subject as most cover mechanics in the first year!

Not sure of how it works now, but when I did it you could pick modules and concentrate on different things, so all would do effectively a whole A-level in pure maths then pick modules in stats, mechanics and/or decision maths which was a great intro to project management practices - Gantt charts etc.

to discover that Complex numbers aren't in standard A level Maths!

But pleased to see more stats is in there.

And thirty years ago, Ellen, most A Level syllabuses included complex numbers, some vague matrix/vector notation stuff and first order differential equations if you were lucky. That's now all in FP1 and FP2, so someone doing physics or engineering without it is going to struggle.

This isn't a story of dumbing down, particularly, because there's a load of good stuff for other disciplines that wasn't in A Level back in the day: S1 is a pretty good introductory statistics course, for example, which I suspect biology and psychology are glad to have, whereas the A Level maths I did had essentially no statistics or probability work in it all.

I did a physics degree without further maths A level 30 years ago, and even then when less schools offered it so more than half of us hadn't done it, it was a struggle. I spent a third of the first year doing 'Maths for Scientists' which included all the further maths syllabus plus, done at a 'university' rate of knots.

Some computer science degrees are starting to insist on A2 Further Maths, and others are muttering about wanting AS. It's been pretty much compulsory for Maths degrees at the more selective places, ditto physics, ditto engineering, for some years.

Even if you don't fancy the whole six modules, there is very useful content for almost every engineering and computing course in FP1 and FP2 (complex numbers, differential equations and some simple matrix stuff), so someone who does Maths to A2 but drops Further Maths after AS is still stealing a march by doing FP1, FP2 and one other (say D1 or S2).

Thanks Jeanne16 and Takver.

She does not need to do Further Maths at GCSE to do it at A level. However I would suggest she only does it if she gets an A* for Maths GCSE otherwise she will struggle.

Would definitely recommend further maths for economics, blestawoya - even in the dark ages when I studied the subject those who had FM were at a distinct advantage.