What should send me running (secondary school visit)?

redsky:

Agree with humblepie - nice office staff is a good sign. I hadn't met the staff at DD1's (Y7) new school - but delivered acceptance form by hand (as it was on the way to our primary) and the secretary was really pleased to have an acceptance and said 'Welcome to our school' to me - which made me feel a bit welcomed too.

Also agree with those who suggested behaviour of students as they leave school is a good indicator. They may be voluble - but if they aren't instantly rolling up skirts, smoking, cursing and doing worse (as I fear some kids from schools do locally) then that's a good sign (school has nice kids). In Birmingham we also know locally that Mr. Whippy ice cream vans often sell more than ice cream - so if you see vans near the gates at 3/ 3:30 & not actual ice cream purchases - that's not a great sign.

I also looked into what are the pathways/ support for struggling/ average/ bright pupils - you should understand that those that are struggling are getting support & possibly helped into vocational pathways (don't knock it - plumbers make great livings). You should understand that average/ o.k. students are getting support and are helped into pathways that suit them - maybe excel in one academic area/ better with people so encourage to consider suitable career options, vocational training, etc.... and with academic types - is the sky the limit (i.e. do they get some students to A*s at A-Level - do some go to amazing Universities or just ordinary former polys.

Finally - look into 'extras' - are there clubs (subject-based (science/ maths/ book/ poetry)/ music/ drama/ sport/ dance/ film/ etc...). Do they have Duke of Edinburgh scheme? Foreign language exchanges? Optional trips - maybe ski trips/ visit to continent (one school near us has GCSE Physics student trip to Cern). If your child is into music - are there opportunities there (orchestra/ choir/ quartets/ performance groups & opportunities to perform)? A lot of these clubs are free at DD1's current secondary school and many are at lunch - and that's a real plus for us.

Most kids move in a fairly happy bubble of their classes/ clubs/ friendship circle in senior school - so it doesn't matter if there's a huge & varied range of kids admitted - what matters is if you can envision that a bubble suitable for your child is possible there.

HTH

My advice would be - take a good look at the Head! Listen carefully to his/her Opening Evening speech, try to meet her for a chat if you can, and do a bit of googling to see if there's any positive or negative history. Is she likely to move on soon? Is she close to retirement?

Think like an outstanding teacher who is looking for their next job - is this someone you would want to work for? Ask around to find out whether staff turnover is high - but be careful because that could mean that the Head is clearing out bad eggs, rather than a sign that good teachers are moving on.

And do listen to the children - do they like their Headteacher?

If she writes a weekly blog on the website, read it and see what you think.

Watch out for brainwashing though. The kids at my local equivalent are well versed in the marketing of the trust that runs it. The Head boy stood up at the Open Evening and said how proud he was to be at an Outstanding school .... which would have impressed parents who didn't know Ofsted had rated it as Requiring Improvement.

Have just spotted this interesting article and thought other MNtters would find it helpful.
www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/23/choosing-secondary-school-teachers-guide-for-parents.

Most schools would offer Triple science. Some schools give it the full teaching time required for 3 GCSEs and others expect pupils to be able to do the course as fast-track i.e. with the same amount of time for Double science (2 GCSEs). The latter may not work well for some pupils.
However the coming changes in GCSEs may mean that options currently available may no longer be offered in a few years time (some subjects will no longer be available as GCSEs at all), so I would be wary about choosing a school based on GCSE options as a main criteria.

"My bottom line is whether the school provides triple science GCSEs or not."

Don't all high schools offer triple science for those who are able?

My daughters' school had an open evening last night and then tours today (normal school day). Dd2 took round a group of three families and they'd all been there the evening before too, which I thought was interesting.

I would always want to see the school in action. I wouldn't be comfortable not being able to walk around the school during the school day.
I work in a school and our HT regularly has escorted tours around the school. The parents seem to find them very informative.

Streaming and setting are very different. Our closest secondary school puts Y7s into fixed streams across every subject (based on the results of a CAT test) and then keeps them there for the next three years, with little or no movement between streams. Many parents did not realise this when they chose the school.

Humblepie I just mentioned your 'Office staff' rule to DH - who visits over 100 schools a year - he agrees
Deffo agree re office staff

Bless! Its MN and people agree with me!

for you!

No work displayed at all. We visited a faith school who didn't have any work on the walls, when asked the teacher showing us around said "well, maths equations aren't very attractive haha."

Deffo agree re office staff.

I also look out for how teachers talk to students as they move around the school and vice versa. I like it when they know names but just the general demeanour is interesting. The one I was at on Saturday, the interaction was very pleasant - teachers not patronising to the children, children polite but engaged and not remotely scared

I found the open evenings were fantastic but do agree on sitting outside the school at home time and doing the visit during the school day.

I visited a lot of schools when I was looking for ds and we came to the conclusion that in all of the OFSTED outstanding schools when we returned for the school day visit all the children looked completely bored.

Also as I knew a lot of the parents from one of the schools we visited and it did leave me wondering whether it was the schools teaching that was getting the good results or the private tutors my friends were employing.

My bottom line is whether the school provides triple science GCSEs or not. I'm not totally against combined science GCSE or whatever it's called as a concept, but my understanding is that the jump from that to A-level is very hard, and I don't want any barriers between ds and science A-levels if he should choose to go that route.

Likewise, I cared if there has been a viable group doing Further Maths A-level in the school in recent years. 1 child in two years is not a viable group IMO. DS is good at maths and he may not want to go that far but I want a school that is not struggling to find him a peer group if he does.

I found that I also cared very much whether the head teacher seemed exactly like David Brent (he even used the word 'entertainer' )

I would be wary of a school that didn't let you meet any actual pupils.
At one very highly regarded local school, we were shown round by teachers and there was no opportunity to meet any pupils. That really put us off!
Trouble was this school looked really great and a good fit for dd (on paper), but had the feeling that they were so smugly oversubscribed that they wanted fewer people to apply.
"the schools not within striking distance that we would get into are all significantly worse - on paper anyway" It really depends what you mean by worse, if it's results and OFSTED ratings they can change. Also bear in mind that OFSTED requirements have changed significantly so the school rated Outstanding 4 years ago may not be as good as the one rated Good earlier this year!

What I witnessed spoke volumes, if this was the schools finest what on earth were the rest of the pupils like. Don't be fooled by amazing buildings and facilities, try to spend time talking to pupils. Are they polite, articulate, friendly, well mannered? Are they happy and enjoying life school?

Humblepie
I just mentioned your 'Office staff' rule to DH - who visits over 100 schools a year - he agrees

enjoy the open evening but the acid test is sitting quietly in your car outside the gates at kicking out time

the tidal wave will always be a tad intimidating (esp in a big school)
but is it happy?
is the vibe good?

Ive recently visited a couple of schools. I was initially impressed by one school with a shiny modern building until the girls showing us around let their guard down a bit. One of them openly slagged off a teacher in front of us saying his lessons were boring.

It is DD's year 6 transition open evening tonight. She is helping out in one of the departments.

I know for a fact that her school knows that bullying happens, but they also say that they will not tolerate it and will deal with it, but they do need to be told about it.

As someone already said, I'd avoid a school where the head says that they have no bullying because to me that means that they just don't want to see it. Like you we had a choice between school X or no-no-no, we looked for litter and graffiti but never considered the toilets. We probably should have done seeing as the head apologised for them in his talk. Providing they were above the standard of a bucket in the car park we'd still have sent him there because of the lack of other options. As it's turned out the school was a good fit for DS and we couldn't have chosen better even if we'd had some others to choose from.

I found the primary school gate to be a very reliable source of information, many of my son's classmates had older siblings already at the school in question.

Indicator of a good secondary school: Are the office staff polite, friendly and helpful?

If not, its not a good school. The better the school, the lovelier the office staff.

Someone told me that decades ago. I applied it. I checked out the office staff at schools for my daughter and schools where I worked.

'Nasty office staff, nasty school' works.

Daughter's school had the nicest office staff of all. They liked all the 'daughters' and were nice to the parents.

I would actually ask what the children thought could be improved about the school, rather than actual dislikes. Most children showing you around will be pretty positive about the school, but might be sparky enough to think of improvements. Ask them about the quality of teachers. Pupils really know if there are lots of good ones. A short list would put me off. After all, you need high quality teaching and learning above everything else, so trying to get information on this is vital. Ask what the best lessons are like. What is exciting about the school? Shoddy work in the classrooms, staff not being welcoming and no pride in achievements would be a turn off too. If the Head gets teaching and learning right, though, you will be ok!

All the secondary schools I saw with my dd all had the kids showing the school to the prospectives. I would ask these kids what they didn't like about the school. I think you get a lot from how the kids react to difficult questions. My favourite school was one where, when I asked that question, one of the two kids showing us around really went for it whilst the other one just cradled his head in his hands. I thought that the teachers must have known what a git this kid was but yet still felt comfortable to put him out there to meet parents. It gave me the impression that they really valued the kids and encouraged them to be who they were. DD's first choice was the flashy-er, all mod cons academy closer to home but that school/kid really impressed me.