Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

just over a year ago jimjams (dd was at one). That was a good one but we had to travel to it and it wasn't an option before sixth form. Local options not so good (and one of my dc attended one of them briefly too, so I'm not relying entirely on heresay there either).

Frogs - when did you last visit a comp? They have changed enormously over the last ten years or so I think. A generalisation but broadly true.

Interestingly a local selective (faith) school has just has a bad run due to a dodgy head. When we were looking for ds2 we didn't even bother looking as he wouldn't have been in with a chance of a place, but the current year 7 is half empty so I will look for ds3 as I assume they'll take any old heathen at the moment & parents I have spoken to seem happy with it (new head just started).

I went to a superselective eons ago, and always felt it was a bit of a fluke that I passed the entrance test. The education was very good (though not as void of bad behaviour as some seem to imagine) and I ended up with good results and a place at an elite university which I am fairly sure would not have happened if I had attended the local comp which had a bad reputation and poor results. So I've always been uneasy about selective schools because I don't think the selection processes are fair (but again much of life isn't fair either), and mainly that there is the suspicion that their presence reduces aspiration/achievement in the remaining schools. My experiences of true comprehensives is that a few are great but many are not and there is as much if not more inequality about who gets to attend the good ones as there is inequality in the selective system.

summer on the Latin again, I assumed what was meant was the WJEC latin certificates (before OCR was mentioned at least), which are worth 2 full GCSEs (in terms of equivalence) and might easily be confused with iGCSEs as the variants of those that are taken by state schools are often called certificates too (no idea if OCR have done anything similar to WJEC or not). (I tend not to be overly pedantic on terminology, but do take your point)

A good HT and SLT is absolutely necessary but not sufficient. The HT and SLT need good teachers capable of getting the best out of the kids they teach. IME (which is similar but not so different from yours), I come to a different conclusion about the sort of teachers needed for teaching high ability kids, especially as they get older.

I like his school. He's very happy there, it provides excellent extra curricular activities & it allows him days off to pursue a particular extra curricular activity without any problems at all (is very supportive indeed). He's there because he chose to put it first on his CAP ( the local comprehensive was in second place).

The fact he chose the grammar & we all like the grammar (it's a good school) doesn't stop me seeing what is good in other schools - and I honestly believe the teaching in the comprehensive is first rate & they take a very individual approach - I like that.

The comp will probably be third choice for ds3 - just because he's a funny fish and I think it might be too large for him. He's more academic & harder working than ds2 but I'm not convinced ( yet) the grammar school will be the right school for him either - a school is about more than its results.

Every school has pros & cons - the most important factor for me is that my child is happy wherever they are. From what I have seen (as parent, teacher & high achieving pupil) I'm not at all convinced that high achievers need specialist teachers. If someone is competent to teach GCSE/A levels they're competent. The best teachers I've seen have been found in my eldest son's SLD school tbh.

What every school does need (and is of far more importance than selection) is a good head teacher and SLT - then pupils across the board tend to do well.

Molio my DC does not go to the school nor do I plan on sending them there. It might be better to read this thread to get a better idea of what people think about the situation:
www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=29654

How many do QEB suggest leave on average, out of curiosity? Is it done rigidly on sixth form entry requirements or more subtly?

Molio why should it follow that super selectives treat their students as one amorphous mass of league table cannon fodder? I get the impression that some people do have this impression of QEB. It stems from their A level cull.

I don't know how many Mum but my husband teaches in one.

have, not having.

How many schools are there that cater purely for the needs of the lowest academic achievers (primary and secondary level)?

Well tbh you're basing your opinion on an open day visit I think you said didn't you jimjams? Which is fine and it may well be the case that this comp is indeed incredibly good at treating its students as individuals. But why should it follow that super selectives treat their students as one amorphous mass of league table cannon fodder?. From a purely personal parental perspective my eight children - all very, very different in terms of character, and four of each gender - having always been treated as individuals with the teaching staff 'getting' them very astutely and dealing with them accordingly. It's not either/ or.

I'm also intrigued jimjams as to why you sent your son to a super selective if you don't believe there is any need for special provision for the highly able?

And why you've posted so many positive things about the school in the past?

But valuing all pupils isn't the same thing as providing properly.

I was at a lovely comp last nigh. Just lovely. Bright, welcoming, warm. Lovely teachers, lovely kids.

But the reality for them, is that the highest ability DC are just not a priority. There are far bigger fish to fry.

Like you jimjams the view was very much that this cohort was the easy one. The teachers didn't have to be the best ones. They accepetd this quite openly.

And frankly, I could see it from their point of view. There are only so many hours in a day and only so many resources.

Yes mum I agree. The idea there are 'high achievers' and 'others' - as one mass is laughable. That's why I like the local comp (that none of my children go to) - they really do seem to take a very individual approach. I was impressed. I felt they valued all students from those with pretty significant SN up to the high achievers.

there

Yes I do know exactly what it sounds like, or rather what I sound like, but I'm not going to be too precious about it. All universities aren't equal and all teachers and their abilities aren't equal. I don't think it's that controversial.

Mum 'duffer' is way down the scale from the sort of credentials I'm describing. I think some people here may be woefully optimistic about the pool of teachers out there, which isn't to say that there aren't masses and masses of excellent teachers. It's just to say there unfortunately there aren't masses and masses who can stretch and challenge very able 17 and 18 years olds and keep things going at a consistently fast pace. That's particularly true in certain subjects, where there's a massive shortage generally, not just for the top end.

happygardening - mum are you saying... I can't quite figure out how my posts have led you to ask this question TBH.

No I am most certainly not saying that.

What I will say is stop focusing solely on one subset. There are issues across the board e.g. children with SEN for example.

happygardening are you saying that the brightest of the bright children should be given priority over children in other ability ranges?

happygardening whose needs aren't properly being served anyway But I thought your DC's were? Are you not happy with your DCs school?

Them being A levels.

I am rummaging through piles of washing trying to find black jeans as I write this

Word Factory - my point is that there's nothing hugely difficult about teaching A levels. It does not require a super-teacher to teach the very bright. If a teacher is not capable of teaching A levels to the super bright they are not capable of teaching them full stop.

The one advantage I found in teaching very bright boys with a degree from Oxford (& it was always the boys that caused the problems) was that it stopped the arrogant amongst them wasting half their lesson trying to trip me up (as a young, female teacher in my mid 20's) and meant they listened to what I was saying. I'm sure someone from a middle of the road university :rolls eyes: could have delivered the same curriculum - they may have struggled to get the class to listen to them, but that would quite possibly have been due to disruption from arrogance.

Incidentally I was 'ahead' of my Biology teacher when she was coaching me for Oxford entrance exams as we had in those days (in terms of things I'd read & was reading - I'm sure she was ahead of me in How To Pass An A Level). It wasn't a problem, she guided my reading, suggested practice essays, organised mock interviews at the local poly & prepared me well.

Sorry, cross post.

Molio But it's blindingly obvious that a dull middle of the road teacher from a dull middle of the road uni with a dull middle of the road degree won't be able to stretch or challenge the brightest.

Would such a duffer be able to teach anyone? Or are you trying to suggest that a good degree from a good university automatically means a good teacher? It doesn't.

but there are significantly more teachers out there in the pool who can teach the middle and lower end of the ability range well or even superbly

On what do you base this assumption? Do you know what skills the teachers out there have?

Molio a dull middle of the road teacher I'm inclined to think that such a teacher is unlikely to get the best academic performance from a child of any ability.

mum are you saying that it's better to not serve the needs of highest ability children (whose needs aren't properly being served anyway but I accept attempts might be being made in so e places) and thus not disadvantage others, who are of course the majority?

Do you know what you sound like jimjams?