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Original poster

Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

560 replies

thankgodimretired · 26/09/2014 14:55

Interviews?
Questions concerning parental income?
Academic selection?
Previous school reports?
Decisions made by committee about whether to exclude certain individuals from attending?

Having just recently retired from the teaching profession, I am struck by how little things have changed over the course of my working life. There are certainly less overtly selective schools in the state sector than when I started out teaching in South London in the late 1970's. But the independents, grammars and faith schools appear to be more socially exclusive than at any time.

OP posts:
MumTryingHerBest · 30/09/2014 22:14

thankgodimretired Liverpool Blue Coat

MumTryingHerBest · 30/09/2014 22:12

thankgodimretired I am sure many people are familiar with at least one of the schools you have listed. BTW, they still have a selective intake:

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jul/15/london-oratory-accused-cherry-picking-privileged-white-pupils

I will add that this is not a school I personally know.

Pico2 · 30/09/2014 22:11

What are you going to do? Give NitWit lines?

TalkinPeace · 30/09/2014 22:11

Tea and biscuits anybody?

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 22:11

MumTrying, which ones?

OP posts:
Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 22:10

Don't you lecture me about grammar, NitWit.

Don't you badger me, I'm warning you now.

OP posts:
amothersplaceisinthewrong · 30/09/2014 22:09

Indeed many independent schools are full of rich thick oiks.

MumTryingHerBest · 30/09/2014 22:09

thankgodimretired MumTrying, I'm really not sure, are you familiar with any of the schools I mentioned? Yes I am.

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 30/09/2014 22:08

thankgodimretired is retired. I am gobsmacked at the "oiks" comment. I come from a family of teachers, none of whom would support such a view.

Selection may work the selected few, not for the unselected. Writing off kids at 11 because they "fail" an exam (maybe by one mark) and condemning them to a second rate school for "oiks" is immoral and counterproductive.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/09/2014 22:07

Yes. Yes, you have skewered my world view there. Congrats.

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 22:07

smokepole, I'm with you one-hundred-and-ten-percent, a well though-out idea for dealing with the 10/20%.

MumTrying, I'm really not sure, are you familiar with any of the schools I mentioned?

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Pico2 · 30/09/2014 22:06

"Trust me, I'm a teacher" - were you that patronising as a teacher?

"Selection works, full stop" - would you have accepted that as an argument from your pupils? Where is your evidence except your anecdotal experience?

I've been a teacher. I have seen comprehensive education working. That's anecdotal too, but I fail to see why you think your personal opinion based on a single teaching career is any more valid than mine.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/09/2014 22:06

You write as someone who has never learnt about the comma splice, it must be said Op

Another reason for us to be glad you're retired!

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 22:04

Very clever, SteamingNit, or should that be, Nitwit?

The inconvenient truth is a hard pill to swallow. I suppose all children should attend a McDonald's Academy, in your world view.

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happygardening · 30/09/2014 22:04

OP the independent sector also has oiks even the super selectives. Why make the assumption that for oiks the best place for them or indeed the only place for them is a "completely non selective".

smokepole · 30/09/2014 22:03

Thank God. What type of schooling would you like for the 20% or so of students who struggle to achieve at least D grade standard at GCSE level.

I have stated an opinion about a third type of school and how it could work. The idea is that companies be signed up in conjunction with the school gaining incentives from the Government for employing such students. You on the other hand have given no ideas how we could "improve" the education for the students who are struggling with academic education.

MumTryingHerBest · 30/09/2014 22:01

*thankgodimretired, do you think these schools:

Liverpool Blue Coat
London Oratory
Cardinal Vaughan (Chelsea, London)
John Fishers(sic?) in Surrey
QEGS Penrith
Hasmonean (Barnet, London)

are still "Giving a kid from a rough side of town a chance in life"?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/09/2014 21:59

Well, all I can say is: I thank god you're retired too!

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 21:58

You speak as somebody who has never taught, you don't stop being a teacher overnight.

Oh, and by the way being a teacher sometimes means telling a few home truths, sorry if I got your back up but let's cut to the chase here, selection works, full stop.

Most benefit, a few fail.

OP posts:
Marni23 · 30/09/2014 21:45

Marni, there will always be 'oiks' and the place for them is in the completely non-selective school.

Words fail me. I sincerely hope you weren't a teacher.

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 21:39

Marni, there will always be 'oiks' and the place for them is in the completely non-selective school.

Cooper's Company and the other schools mentioned would admit well behaved young people from a poor side of town, an incentive for the parents to raise them in an orderly fashion.

I appreciate my views may come across as a touch strong, but trust me, I'm a teacher.

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TheOriginalSteamingNit · 30/09/2014 21:38

Well to answer the OP, all are awful, and where there are catchment areas that are uniformly wealthy that is awful too, but not, IMO, as awful, in principle, because the MO of that school isn't to provide education to the wealthy/clever/faithful and shut the door on the rest, at least. Though a situation in which as school has an entire catchment of wealthy kids is pretty rare, it is certainly not a good thing.

Marni23 · 30/09/2014 21:34

and it is amusing that yet again the staunchest defenders of state selective schools are people who choose not to use the main state system.

Are you including me in that Talkin?

I do hope not. Because all I would like to see is that no child is consigned to the sort of school that you have described as a 'shit-hole'. The one that you drive past every morning to take your DC to the high-achieving comp they attend.

Whether that is achieved by re-introducing selection or by some other means I really don't care.

I find it fascinating that you are such a staunch defender of a system in which your nearest school is utterly unacceptable to you. And this in a county that is recognised as educationally strong.

happygardening · 30/09/2014 21:33

caff2 I've done some work in the state sector and a very well regarded successful school it was too with excellent results. It was very good but by the standards of DS2's school fantastic is not the first word that springs to mind.
I'm afraid I can't name it due to confidentiality.

Original poster
thankgodimretired · 30/09/2014 21:22

MumTryingHerBest,

I am referring to a tiny number of formerly selective grant-maintained schools, the list below is not exhaustive

Liverpool Blue Coat
London Oratory
Cardinal Vaughan (Chelsea, London)
John Fishers(sic?) in Surrey
QEGS Penrith
Hasmonean (Barnet, London)

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