Worst forms of selection in schools: Views of M'snetters

No I wasn't sure how the time off requests would go, but the schools has been very supportive indeed. I have heard if I had made the same requests at the girls equivalent school they would have been refused - which would have been problematic tbh.

I think I'd like Wey if there were other people doing it nearby for the social side of things. Although something I like about secondary is the independence it teaches (travelling there alone, having a wide group of friends your parents don't know etc), and I'm not sure how easily that would be recreated. Academically I think it's a great idea for a particular type of child.

We're off to see a very different (in terms of educational approach) Free School this week. Am interested to see whether I think it would be disastrous or brilliant for ds2. I think I quite enjoy nosing around different types of schools!

Maybe I am lucky - as I said earlier there aren't really (yet - that may change with increasing birth rate) oversubscription issues in my area. Obviously the grammar schools are oversubscribed, and one comprehensive was last year - we're out of area for it - but that still left a wide range of choices. We personally are limited by bus routes, as I have no idea what ds1 will be doing soon so ds2 and ds3 have to be able to get to their schools under their own steam - but that still gives us a lot of schools to choose from.

Saintly I might have considered it for the DDs. Actually, for DS too. It's come a bit too late for us now - luckily DD2 has settled nicely into the grammar (so far) and is encountering (as yet) no resistance to the flexibility requirements for time off.

Many kids with SN don't get statements though (the majority). DS2 is 15 and has one spoken word - so he really is exceptional.

Yes i agree with that re want and expect happygardening. I don't particularly want ds2's extra curricular stuff done at school - because he can do it to a higher level accessing what is available outside school iyswim - I don't think many (any?) private schools could compete in his area either - except the very specialist ones. He does a whole mix of stuff related to it - partially limited by geography but still plenty to choose from. I expect schools to provide something (and the enrichment weeks at ds2's school are brilliant) - but like the freedom of not being tied to a school for the activities.

Anyway what do people think about Wey ecademy for meeting the needs of the gifted (and other groups). I've linked to the page on gifted children as that's what is being discussed here. I can't decide whether the pros would outweigh the cons or not. If it gets the go ahead it will be an outsider choice of school for ds3 - it will go on the list to be considered anyway (not because he's bright or whatever, just because he's a funny fish). I'm interested in a range of views to try and decide what mine are! :)

There is a huge difference between want and expect. I place very high value on the type of extra curricular activities/opportunities offered by DS2's school, I don't and have never expect state schools to provide them but I still want them so luckily can pay to get them.
I very much doubt a super bright child would get a statement. It's just not seen as an issue by many state schools.

I agree with you that collecting GCSE's is dull and somewhat pointless.

The super super bright should come with extra resources of course (and the school are right really - why buy resources used once every 25 years - it's one reason why I took a lot more care with ds1's statement when he was in mainstream, than when he was in special - the statement was necessary in mainstream to buy in things like SALT, which doesn't need to be bought in in in a special school). I think you can go after that for your super bright child - but like any of us going after resources for an exceptional child (in either direction), you just have to weigh up whether it's worth it or not - and people like you have other choices of course - and it's not hugely surprising if someone chooses to pay for the 'best' education for their child, rather than the 'suitable' education the State is legally obliged to provide.

pickled - way back I mentioned the excellent extra curricular activities at ds2's state grammar. The state schools we've looked at so far have all had good extra curricular activities. The local comp btw has 40%+ on FSM. It has excellent extra curricular activities in performing arts and engineering, as well as more obvious ones such as sports. Also tutor groups are arranged around interests and students often do extended projects/extra curricular activities around those interests - often before school. It's not something I'd worry about. DS3 has already decided if he goes there he'll be spending a lot of time in the library (!) (and they do do quite a bit with the library kids). I looked around after school and there were quite a few classrooms of kids getting some extra help from teachers, or taking part in activities. Of course they're not providing the same as a public boarding school, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect them to.

But I've had this argument about extra curricular activities on a different thread. If you child is at a very high level in an extra curricular activity then it's not really fair to expect a regular school to provide for you at that level. DS2 takes part in his extra curricular stuff nationally (and internationally now thinking about it - although that will be very very rare indeed for him) - his school supports him by allowing time off. He can do a lot of it in school holidays. If he needed to do more than that, then I could see we might be tempted by a specialist scholarship to a private school or one od the specialist schools I mentioned earlier. The local public school very much specialises in sports - and I do know a few kids who compete at a national level who go there because they have to miss so much school and while a state school will allow them time off the public school also provides catch up lesson and tutors etc. I can see why parents would make that choice and I can understand why the local state schools can't compete with the level of support.

But if you're looking at general enrichment type activities - yes all the local state schools provide something sensible (imo).

saintly you're right only a small number of children can't be served by a good state school and I agree particularly in a rural area it's not realistic to create schools just for them. Travelling is an issue and one if the reasons we turned down the place at our "nearest" super selective and off course parents are squeamish about boarding. DS2 was at a small 80 pupils primary one of their justifications for not doing anything is that they were "statistically unlikely to have another super bright child along for 25 years" so why buy resources, hire staff for one child?
I happened to have the ear of the head of that particular LEA he agreed it shouldn't be like that and that provision can and should be made (paid for by the school the child attends) but as I said before it was IMO distinctly mediocre. Many super bright are also simply made to do more GCSE's/A levels often earlier and this is meant to be something good, I personally don't agree, super bright can be as easily turned off exams as any one else, I believe they benefit from being stretched and challenged in other ways unrelated to state exams.

saintlyjimjams, nowhere have you mentioned the 'quality' of the other offerings at your choice of schools for your DS3. Does the extra-curricular provision not matter? The lunches? The teachers on patrol? You see, I'm not one of those that think comps are good enough for the majority and it's just the super-bright that need something better. All children deserve better than what's on offer at my local 'good' comp where the Head wheels out the high achievers at every available opportunity and those that work hard but achieve less are forgotten. Where controlled assessment is a joke and extra classes are offered willynilly to those students that couldn't be bothered to listen first time round. Where teachers spent all break time phoning parents asking for their cooperation and 20+ emails do the rounds because student X kicked off in form time. This culture of complacency is not something that I would immerse my DC in through choice.

Oh just to add - had we lived elsewhere in the country we may well have chosen a specialist school for ds2. We could have afforded day fees with or without a scholarship. I just don't see him not being able to access those schools as a huge disadvantage - pros & cons again. Of course that's a decision he/we may revisit at sixth form. (Maybe he'll go for the Eton scholarship ;) )

Hmm okay - I suppose my point is that the number of children who cannot be served by A levels/GCSE's is going to be very small - and like any child whose needs cannot be met in those ways you, as parents, have to expect a battle (usually because the provision doesn't exist - and probably isn't going to - I suppose the state could open a few boarding schools for the super bright, but many with children eligible wouldn't choose boarding). The law only has a responsibility to provide a 'suitable' education - not the best - obviously with money people might exercise their choice & choose to pay - if there's enough of a market someone will be providing something - even if you have to travel a long way.

In terms of typically bright kids (ds2 & ds3 are what I would call typical bright kids) then I do believe the state can provide for them. We're looking at secondaries for ds3 now. He's a child I could see at Oxford in the future - he has a very intense interest in one area (history) & obsessively reads around it - and likes historical holidays etc. Could he get to Oxford from the grammar? Yep - if he works hard enough. Could he get to Oxford from the local comp? Yep - if he works hard enough. Would there be a difference between the GCSE's he would take between the two? Not in terms of number, but at the grammar school he could take Latin, history AND ancient history if he wanted. At the comp he could only take history (we'd probably find some out of school Latin teaching for him if he went anywhere other than the grammar - no other schools offer it locally). Would he be held back by having different GCSE choices? No, I don't believe so.

Ds2, currently at the grammar (supposedly a superselective as it takes from miles and miles away - but not really because there isn't the population density to be super selective) will give up Latin & wouldn't go to Oxford in a million years (he's bright, but not what I'd call fiercely academic). Does the grammar serve his needs? Yep. Would the comp we put as second choice serve his needs? Yep.

The vast majority of bright children will be like ds2 & ds3 and their needs can be met, IMO, by local schools - probably the main issue being over subscription (not a huge problem at secondary in my area - so we do have a genuine choice of secondaries with a different feel/focus).

That doesn't mean children with significantly different needs don't exist - but they're rare - and then all you can do is do your best. Ds2 for example happens to be very talented in one particular area - we could have sent him to a school specialising in that - but he would have had to have boarded. We chose not to because we didn't particularly want him boarding (& couldn't really have afforded it - even if he'd won a scholarship - it would have been a stretch). So he goes to a good local school & is getting loads of experience outside school (& the good local school allows him time off to do that).

Any school has pros & cons - and as parents all we can do is weigh then up.

Incidentally - has anyone been following the progress is Wey ecadamy? That plans to offer a specific 'gifted' programme (and Latin - hoorah) - academically I liked the look of it - although the cons might outweigh the pros for me.

saintly I know all about fighting your DS's corner my DS1 ( who up till yr 11 was at an outstanding high achieving academy their words not mine although I accept it was the counties top performing school now well regarded 6th form college) has according to his ed psych report "moderate" dyslexia described as moderate because he can read and comprehend well, has an IQ that puts him the top 5% but processing is bottom 3% but not bad enough to be statemented. Our heads are sore with over the years pointlessly repeatedly banging them against a wall stuffed with lazy couldn't care less lying teachers governors etc. In our experience nothing changes. Secondly I've heard from others about the sort of provision that can be offered in the state sector frankly I'm not impressed then I'm in a financial position where I can afford to be unimpressed.
You are right saintly GCSE's/A levels aren't going to stretch the super bright which is why we choose DS2's school, only offering the harder Pre U, unashamedly intellectual, combined with extensive variety of activities that only full boarding can provide.

happygardening mum I was trying to say that IME of the state sector the needs of the super bright aren't properly being served

The needs of any child significantly different from the norm aren't being met - if we're talking about super bright rather than standardly bright. That's partly because GCSE's and A levels aren't going to stretch the super bright & the main point of school is to collect exams (that's how a school gets judged'.

If your child is so far from the norm that they can't benefit from collecting A levels & can't cope with bring a bit bored at school at times then you can do the same as parents with kids with significant SN have to do regularly - and go to tribunals, write to your MP's, get IEP's etc. I find many with children they see as exceptional aren't prepared to do this & inhabit some alternative version of reality where they think extra help is handed out to those with SN with no problem at all. My friend recently has to try & get her son into the only suitable special school for him locally - there were 60 kids going for three places.

Talkin I'm really quite shocked at your language - gypsies etc. - it's just utterly dreadful. Also, you've boasted enough now about 'stonking' grades but the raw reality is that 3A*/ 9A though perhaps 'stonking' by comp standards, really isn't by independent super selective standards, as both Word and happy have said, citing their stats. Nor does it compare to state super selective results, indeed it falls a very long way short. To castigate Word about access work for Oxbridge is miserable too - you don't even know if her work is paid or voluntary and either way I personally see no irony at all. As my kids would say: take a good hard look at yourself. Someone with the luxury of being able to opt out of the local school and do the run to a nice leafy comp, with the fall back of private (albeit at the cost of foreign holidays etc) is not in any position to sneer at others for exercising a choice. Classic middle class champagne socialism; not the most laudable sight.

mum I don't mind your challenging my opinions I post in here because Inlike to be challenged and to challenge. I'm rushing off to a meeting I will read what you've written properly and reply later.

happygardening I appreciate that my posts may seem like I am challenging you. I'm not. I am directing questions (and they are questions not statements of fact) to you as, from what I can tell, you are the contributor on this thread who is faced with the challenges of gaining access to appropriate educational provision for the super bright.

From what you have outlined above, the issue is not so much the fact that the provision is not there, it is more to do with gaining access to the provision. However, I don't see that this is an exclusive problem for the super bright. there are literally hundreds of posts made by people with children in state education who feel that they have no option but to move house to gain access to schools which are labeled as good or outstanding.

Whilst I appreciate that some feel there should be dedicated educational centers for the super bright, given the geographical spread of these children (as I feel it is unlikely that you are going to find the majority of the super bright children in one specific location of the UK) I'm not sure how, from a cost perspective, this could be made into a viable proposition. Admittedly boarding facilities could be a solution. However, would this not then mean that the same option should also be presented to parents who are currently moving house in order to gain access to good or outstanding schools?

Something that people may find interesting regarding the provision of education to the super bright:

www.theguardian.com/education/2008/apr/04/highereducation.uk

My DD feels privileged to go to her Independent selective school where 'quality' is clear in everything they do. My DS wishes that his state primary school was more 'professional' (his word).

What is that?

mum I'm sorry of if I failed to make this clear on this thread I believe there are plenty is independent schools out there that are also unable to meet the needs of the super bright in fact I believe the vast majority can't as just as in the state sector true super selectives are actually not that common in the independent sector.
Our "nearest" state super selective at the time we applied for a place was over 40 miles away. For my DS to get there I would have to have driven him 10 miles in the opposite direction to pick up the bus at 7 45 am and then he would have had an about an hours coach journey to school. Fairly obviously in the evening I would have to have picked him up from the place the coach dropped him off at 4 30 ish. We have no public transport here so I would not have been able to work; my job requires me frequently to stay beyond 4 pm and on some occasions I start work before 7 45, the coach stop was 20 mins away from work. So any money saved in fees would have no effect because I'd have to have given up my job.
My DS's current independent super selective was at the time we applied just off 80 miles away and the only other one we applied to was over 135 miles away, we were only applying to those super selectives in the independent sector offering boarding which I believe offers the sort of all round broad education which the super bright really benefit from. It is so easy for them to get on an exams only treadmill, the "your so bright you can do more (I)GCSE's/A levels" rather than finding alternative non examined ways of stretching them, boarding can do this because they simply have the time but that's another separate thread and has already been done to death on here. Our nearest day super selective was at the time 50 miles away and although very well known and well liked by many simply doesn't do it for me. We're not scratching around to make ends meets but we're not super wealthy either and we as a family don't have many of the luxuries lots of the children at DS2's school have because of paying school fees, so if I am going to pay there are certain things I want for my money and it's not just results which as I said my DS2 could probably achieve in our excellent state comps.
As I've also said up thread and before for those of us lucky enough to have choices, either because of our location and/or financial circumstances, are in the luxurious position of being able to choose the school that we feel is the right fit for our DC's and as importantly ourselves. This is sadly not true the vast majority.

happygardening "nearest" state super selective. Just a point to make on this, "nearest" is not the same as "non exist". I don't get the impression that your DC is at your "nearest" private school either yet you don't make the claim that the private sector is unable to meet the needs of the super brights.

Word asked some way up thread why some posters deny that there's any issue with how well high ability children are served by our largely comprehensive system. I've been thinking about whether I fall into this category, and if so why.

I think my view is that I don't deny that this may be a problem at a macro level, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence for it. You cite a Sutton Trust report, Word - if I've tracked down the right one, its conclusion is that going to grammar school may convey an advantage of between zero and three quarters of a grade at GCSE, but it's hedged around with so many caveats that it's hard to take as the definitive answer.

I think I also instinctively feel uncomfortable with people stating this possible advantage as if it were indisputable fact, because I worry it will exacerbate the problem. The more parents of high attaining children feel that comprehensive schools aren't the best place for their children, the more they will seek out alternatives. And the more they do that, the fewer children there will be in comps to provide the sort of critical mass of children at the same ability level that we know benefits kids. I also resist the automatic answer that more selection is the solution, because of the extent to which any sort of selection ends up skewed in favour of already advantaged people.

So while I'm very open to evidence that shows that some comprehensives are failing their brightest pupils, I'd prefer to address that by exploring what the comps that don't fit this pattern do differently, rather than assuming that more selection is the answer.

Thought this might also be of interest:

www.prlog.org/10755715-how-london-girl-became-the-youngest-mathematics-and-computer-science-graduate-from-oxford.html

Maths prodigy Anne-Marie Imafidon, who holds the world record of the youngest girl ever to pass A-level computing at the age of eleven.

All children of the Imafidon family attended inner city schools, yet have set various world records including passing High school, and college level exams (GCSEs) at six, or seven and other advanced exams while at elementary (primary) school after participating in the Excellence in Education programme.

excellenceineducation.org.uk/home/what-we-offer

I wonder how many of these children needed a primary/secondary education exclusively for the super bright (I don't know the answer BTW):

www.gradschoolhub.com/10-youngest-people-ever-to-achieve-a-doctorate-degree/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1308446/Maths-prodigy-Arran-Fernandez-14-youngest-Cambridge-student-1773.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Lawrence

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_prodigies

www.waikato.ac.nz/news-events/media/2011/10waikatos-youngest-graduate-off-to-oxford.shtml

www.businessinsider.com/child-prodigies-2011-5?op=1

www.teachthought.com/interest/the-10-youngest-college-students-of-all-time/

Looking at these examples (albeit a relatively small sample) perhaps the solution is early entry to University?

happygardening IME of the state sector the needs of the super bright aren't properly being served. Is it not possible that they are but only at the super selectives? Granted there are very few super selectives. However, surely there are relatively few super bright children.

talkin I hope I haven't offended you I just feel strongly about these kind of unpleasant labels regardless of who makes them.
mum it was non selective schools who advised me to go elsewhere?new turned down a place at our "nearest" state super selective.

Talkin it is a pity that you continue to misunderstand the point of my quibble and your comment following your previous reaction could be interpreted as transference. I am delighted when any child does well and BTW my DS does not go to Eton, not quite sure why you think he does. He has got quite a few friends who went there.

happygardening mum I was trying to say that IME of the state sector the needs of the super bright aren't properly being served. you have previously said that the state schools you approached refused to educate your DC. Were these schools super selective state schools?

This is a genuine question as, due to inexperience and ignorance on my part, I am not able to able to fully understand the issues you face.

I will also add that what you consider as people generally ignoring the issue is actually people not fully understanding the issue.

Can I ask you what % of children in the UK are at the same, or compatible, academic level to your DC. I think you have stated what it is but I can't remember what it was.

Happygardening you of all people (as you know who I am)
I accept the point about chavs/gyppos
but please, be willing to accept that the "worthy" North London interpretation is way, way off the mark.
the 'undesirables' hate my local school almost more than I do .....