Maths setting advice

The levels are higher as the Primaries are being judge even more harshly on progress, same as secondaries. When I started 6 years ago the expected progress for a student at secondary was 3 levels of progress from Yr 7- Yr 11, so effectively come in at level 4 end at level 7 which is a Grade C - now we are expected to get 4 levels so that level 4 should end with a Grade B.

I hate teaching mixed ability in Maths - we used to take till half term to set but have pulled it back this year to having sets sorted by Week 4 of term - it is a huge challenge to teach a class where you have students coming in on a Level 2 or lower all the way up to Level 6 which we have had for the past 3 years now so seems to be the way it is going - I have a huge respect for Primary teachers who do this regularly.

Its one of the arguments we used to push for earlier setting - both ends get bored - top due to lack of challenge bottom as they can't access the work.

YoungJoseph:

Just to put the NC L4 concept into context - see guardian statistics for KS2 Maths results here: www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/sep/19/sats-results-key-stage-two - scroll to table at bottom.

In 2013 - 41% of all pupils scored NC L5 or higher with 85% of all pupils scoring NC L4 or higher.

I fear a 4a/5c is starting to look 'very average' for end KS2 results.

The government hasn't published KS2 results yet this year - but preliminary information (www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347653/SFR30_2014_Text.pdf) suggests 1% improvement at both NC L4 and NC L5 (not sure if that reads 1% more achieving NC L4 or 1% more achieving NC L4 or better).

But presuming the former - that would mean

87% of pupils in 2014 achieved NC L4+
45% of pupils in 2014 achieved NC L5+ at KS2 SATs.

So nearly half of all pupils are achieving NC L5 (one full NC Level above government 'floor standard' of NC L4).

HTH clarify the NC L4 being 'good standard' thing.

YoungJoseph:

DD1 got a level 6 in maths and is at a state secondary comprehensive which does not stream/set in any subject until Year 8. So our reality is 3 weeks into the school year DD1 has only had about 5 minutes of homework because the teacher thinks most worksheets started in class can't be finished in class (although DD1 has always finished in class). The 5 minute homework thing was because the teacher forgot to give out one worksheet in class - so gave it out as they were leaving (4 pyramids or adding numbers to make a target - dead easy stuff for DD1 - finished in

Meant 66% get at least a level 5.

My ds got a level 5 in Maths and he struggles with it...no way would I expect him to be in top sets. Dd got a level 4 and she has been set with children who were in the top maths sets in primary school. At their primary 66% of children get a level 5 which was considered average for our area.

"The reality is that by the time they get to secondary"

Yesterday I playfully asked Y7 DD to rate the difficulty of the work in three weeks of lessons in the two obvious subjects. Accompanied by some independent, thoughtful and credible justifications she arrived at this:

English (mixed-ability): 4/10
Maths (parallel top-set): 4/10

I'm sure you're right about some schools and some children, quite possibly many, but that's not the entire story and there was a non-trivial number of children penned in by L5 teaching and assessment ceilings, low expectations, at primary. Although they made a new limit of L6, the primary school's expectations improved in several way before DD got to upper-KS2. It's too early to judge the 'Good' (ambitious) secondary, but I'm pining for the ethos we've lost because so far they seem to fit this reality:

I’d suggest that OfSTED is correct in highlighting KS2-KS3 transition which is hardly a national success story; I hear this all the time. I’ve called it the Berlin Wall of our system and far too often, Y7s are babied and patronised instead of allowed to fly from the position they reached in Year 6. From Day One, some children are systematically under-challenged; they are not expected to work as hard as they could and their sights are set lower than they could be… in some schools. Maybe not yours.. [Tom Sherrington]

My ds is in year 7, there are 2 set 1s evenly split. He has 30 in his set and he said at least half, probably more got level 6 in maths. I guess the other half are at least 5b or higher. It would not be good for your daughters confidence to be set too highly. My other ds went in at 5 a, didn't do 6 at primary but was 7b by the end of y7. The speed of teaching in his set means you really need to be excellent at maths to keep up, not just above average. In year 9 most of his set is level 8 and they have started the gcse syllabus.

@Noodledoodledoo, the national percentages for maths levels this year:

L3: 10%
L4: 44%
L5: 33%
L6: 9%

This obviously doesn't change your point, but in recent years the L5 has stayed at roughly 35% and the L6 has been increasing.

Children move up and down sets all the time.

If your DD is as good as you say she is she will be moved up in no time at all.

One of my DS's friends was put in Set 2 in Yr 7, another in Set 3. By year 9 they were both in set 1. A third friend was put into set 3 and there he has stayed.

Our current Yr 7 intake has 46% at level 5 at the end of KS2 - with two grammers in the same town plus 6 comprehensives to choose from. Primary's are pushing more and more students on to level 5's it is a noticeable trend.

Possibly different intake so different levels will dictate being in a higher set.

Yr 9 might have a lower ability across the board - so has made it into a higher set.

Tables are not particularly well taught these days in some schools - I spend a lot of time across all sets top to bottom improving these skills - lots are taught to count up in 6's and when they can it is assumed they know the 6 times table - drives me mad!

If you honestly think the set is wrong - go and speak to the HoD about how they have been set, what you and your daughter can do to help her progress in the subject to move up a set, ask when sets are reviewed etc. Different schools use different methods so it is difficult for other teachers to say why this has happened.

One lazy girl or a child does not know or can't remember a certain table is not representative of her mathematical level or the ability range of top set classes.

I teach RE but I would say 4a in year 6 is middle ability.

As you say you are also working in the school - I am not sure in what role but it is a careful line to walk.

In my NQT year I had an LSA who underminded me with her daughter every step of the way, her daughter was a pain in class, a year 10 girl and there were a group of them who tried every trick in the book to undermine me - if I issued a detention they went running to Mummy who went to the HoY who took them away. My HoD went balistic as he had seen the behaviour in action on observations.

It culminated in her requesting the head sack me with no basis whatsoever other than me not accepting poor behaviour from her daughter and addressing it.

She slagged me off behind my back, on facebook the lot, it was a GCSE class and I was told by her regularly I was letting her daughter down and she would fail - her daughter was not a natural mathematician but got 1 mark off an A on her first attempt at the exam, went on to get an A. Has also had the 'nerve' to come and ask me to help her daughter with some Stats work for her college course!

Maybe this makes me sensitive about people writing off NQT's but some of best teachers over the last few years have been in thier NQT year.

I also think having an NQT isn't an issue. DS3's ability with maths was always good but it came on leaps and bounds last year with an NQT.

A 4a/5c in my comprehensive (in a town with two grammar schools, girls and boys) would be in the middle of ability for our maths sets. Our top sets are almost always full with level 6s and 5a's.

We also fill to capacity the top sets as those with a lower ability can get more teacher attention. Able students in a subject won't need as much help so one teacher to 30 is fine. With students who might need more help one to 20 works better. We review setting each term with tweaks done and then always have a major review at the end of each year.

Having an NQT should have no bearing on lessons as has been said lots of support so if issues do arise help will be sought. Also NQT's have more time to make lessons really engaging which older teachers with other responsibilities may not!

If you think she is in the wrong set then phone the school to ask how they decided the setting and if it's right, what she will need to do to move up. No point in simply sitting at home thinking the school has got it wrong.

An NQT being given a set 3 isn't a problem, NQTs are supposed to be given a range of abilities otherwise how are they supposed to become experienced teachers? NQTs have mentors and get observed and have support so don't assume that your DD is simply getting a raw deal while the top sets get the cream.