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Intelligent design in Free Schools

66 replies

cynicalsceptic · 17/09/2014 01:11

Despite my long held atheist beliefs my child has ended up going to a Christian Free School. The Head assured me that Creationism would not be taught. Unfortunately Intelligent Design seems to be taught in Science (to the exclusion of anything else so far). I am livid and unsure of how to proceed. Should this be allowed?

OP posts:
icecreamsoup · 19/09/2014 15:59

They can't teach it as fact in a Science lesson. And if they're going to present/debate it as opinion then they should do it in an RE lesson. However, could the new law prevent them from presenting/debating it as opinion in a Science lesson? What about if it was in response to a direct question from a student?

There's a chapter in The Young Atheists Handbook about the author's experience as a science teacher - he teaches physics and is frequently asked by his students whether or not he believes in God. I don't think any teachers can avoid those sorts of questions, whether they're religious or not. Presumably the safest answer is "save those questions for your RE lessons", but if they do give their opinion they are presumably not in breach of the law.

TalkinPeace · 19/09/2014 15:21

icecream
The point is they may NOT teach it in the course of a science lesson.

In RE where all sorts of 'beliefs' are discussed it can crop up, but not in Science as it isn't

icecreamsoup · 19/09/2014 15:01

But what if it was given as opinion rather than being taught as fact prh47bridge? Some would argue that whereas evolution is provable, its not possible to prove whether it is theistic or atheistic. I strongly suspect that just about every faith school in the country would claim to be teaching theistic evolution if they were asked. Even if they leave the issue out of their lesson plans, they have to be prepared to answer questions that will inevitably arise from students, and if they say "Well my opinion is [theistic evolution] .." does that count as teaching?

prh47bridge · 19/09/2014 14:50

the legal position might be less clear cut

The legal position is clear cut. Theistic evolution is, in scientific terms, an unprovable (and hence unscientific) theory. It therefore cannot be taught as fact (or as evidence-based) in science lessons.

ArcheryAnnie · 19/09/2014 11:01

Holy shit, my sympathies, OP. You are absolutely right to pursue this. They are doing a disservice to all the kids there, not just yours, and they shouldn't be using state money to do so.

Good luck. Thanks

icecreamsoup · 18/09/2014 17:22

cynicalsceptic - the others are right to say ID isn't allowed. However, it would be worth collecting evidence of exactly what's being said, in case your DC is misinterpreting it. For info, this paper gives the CoE position on evolution. Look at the definition of "Theistic Evolution" and check with your daughter to make sure it's not that they're teaching rather than ID. (Many would say that shouldn't be allowed in science classes either, but the legal position might be less clear cut).

If you think they're definitely teaching ID, then your best bet would be to get in touch with the BHA, because they would support you in challenging the school.

duhgldiuhfdsli · 18/09/2014 17:15

I think the "ID as smokescreen for creationism" line was pretty much killed in the US by Kitzmiller v Dover. ID existed an attempt to weasel around US separation of church and state issues; creationism fails immediately in the US for that reason, while ID can try the various "teach the controversy" or "alternative theories" bullshit angles. The finding in Kitzmiller was that ID is, in fact, a disingenuous smokescreen for creationism, so ID is instantly thrown out of US government-funded schools for First Amendment reasons. The judgement only holds in PA, but no-one is seriously going to try to litigate it elsewhere, because they'll lose. As the fundies are finding over same-sex marriage (now legal in 19 states and counting) judges don't want to look like rubes, and they realise that getting on the wrong side of history is going to make them look stupid in history books.

In the UK there's no useful distinction between the two positions, because both are basically the same idea ("something...spooky...did it"). The advocacy of ID in the UK tends to imply they're heavily influenced by American nutters. Under UK law, there's no particular reason why they can't just go for full-fat theistic creationism, because ID ("God something did it") doesn't afford them any additional protection over what they really want to say ("God did it").

ErrolTheDragon · 18/09/2014 16:28

Good - the definition of 'creationism' includes weaselly ID.

crazymum53 · 18/09/2014 16:16

The recent changes are shown in the following links OP.
rt.com/uk/167044-uk-bans-teaching-creationism and www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/06/18/secular-triumph-as-government-bans-creationism-from-free-sch.
Has the school been inspected by OFSTED? Suspect that this type of teaching wouldn't be approved.

TalkinPeace · 17/09/2014 19:59

Academies do not have to follow the NC
but
AFAIK they are not allowed to cover ID in science and still receive state funding

cynicalsceptic · 17/09/2014 19:51

Thanks again everyone. I was told by the Head that they would be following the National Curriculum. Onbviously with a few deviations...

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crazymum53 · 17/09/2014 17:53

Even as a Christian parent this would bother me.
Even in faith schools (free schools can also be faith schools i.e. select a proportion of children using faith criteria) the only subject where Christianity is the main focus is RE.
I am aware that there is an American curriculum which does link the Christian faith across all subjects, but as far as I know this is only taught in some fee paying independent Christian schools. I suspect this alternative curriculum would not be approved in a state school.
I would go for the curriculum option though: what curriculum is the school following, when will they be looking at other scientific theories e.g. evolution, Big Bang theory? How come ID is being taught as Science when it cannot be proved experimentally etc.

TalkinPeace · 17/09/2014 17:01

ID should not be being taught in any science lesson in any state funded school in England or Wales.

Kick off
Kick off to the highest level you can as fast as you can

duhgldiuhfdsli · 17/09/2014 16:16

In my limited experience of mocking dealing with ID proponents, they're considered an embarrassment by mainstream Christians too. So the OP should avoid making this an "atheist forced into Christian school" issue; unless the school has been populated by people from your local fringe school hall church, all Toronto blessing and healing, most of the Christian parents will be worried too. They'll not want to send their children to a school dominated by these sort of people either.

cynicalsceptic · 17/09/2014 16:09

I have done the wrong thing I know but sending our child to this school meant there were 15 other kids from her primary there. Due to the mess of Secondary School catchments (still have them in some schools and not others here) the kids from the primary ended up in 7 different schools. As she had only been at the primary 6 months and was finding the adjustment hard we thought The Free School was an okay choice when combined with the availability of transport and the assurances from the Head.
Just spoken with another parent and told him about the ID. He is very annoyed and wants to take it further too. Glad that I am not alone.

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ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2014 15:15

Of course it's not your fault - it's the fault (a) of the way our state education has developed and (b) this school ... them telling your child to 'mouth the words' is completely unacceptable, teaching ID in science is plain wrong.

What I'd be worried about is not that your child will say it's all bunk, rather that she's - through no fault of hers or yours - put in a position where she can't be honest about her own religious position or even science.

Laphem · 17/09/2014 15:06

Errol she did, she complained about religion creeping in everywhere, even to music, that was in her second post, the third post in the thread. Hence my comment.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2014 15:01

Laphem - I don't think the OP has complained about Christianity featuring in school life in general - but on this specific which we're all agreed shouldn't be happening. (Though IMO she would have every right to be unhappy that a religious school and one which doesn't even follow the national curriculum is the only state school available - that is a problem with the whole system rather than the particular school)

cynicalsceptic · 17/09/2014 14:55

Okay my fault then. The only transport provided was to the Free School (deemed to be nearest one as crow flies) and no guaranteed place on buses to other schools. I did not choose to put my child there- did not get in to the other school applied for. I am aware that there will be "God stuff" to quote my child but ID in Science! It is also our legal right to opt out of collective worship etc. We wanted our child to give it all a try but she is objecting to hymn singing and prayer saying. She has been told to mouth the words by the teacher dealing with it but she is not happy about that either.
Worried that child is going to say it is all bunk at some point- no discussion of ID in science-just stated as fact.

OP posts:
Laphem · 17/09/2014 14:53

Duhgldiuhfdsli, you appear to be attacking something I never said. I never said creationism was part of mainstream Christianity. I said one should expect Christianity to be present in a mainstream school. It is you who appears to have read Christianity as creationism, not me.
Errol regardless of whether a secular school was available or not your child is in a school established to be Christian, so Christianity is going to feature in school life. ID should not be in science though at all.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2014 14:44

The choice of a secular school (or as near as you can get to one in this country) wasn't available. Hmm

duhgldiuhfdsli · 17/09/2014 14:42

you should expect Christianity to be in a lot of school life

Since when was creationism part of mainstream Christianity? It's explicitly rejected by the Catholic Church and by most recognised Protestant denominations in Europe, and is mostly the preserve of the outer limits of evangelical churches. My children attended a CofE primary, and I would have been both shocked and surprised had the slightest whiff of creationism been present, as would most members of the CofE.

Laphem · 17/09/2014 14:37

I believe in god but think intelligent design is completely inappropriate in science lessons as it is not a scientific theory or hypothesis or anything. Having said that if your child is in a school specifically established to be Christian you should expect Christianity to be in a lot of school life. You didn't choose to send your child to a secular school so it will not be a secular experience.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/09/2014 14:32

Has your DC expressed an opinion on this? I think mine might well have challenged an obviously ID stance at that age.

cynicalsceptic · 17/09/2014 13:47

I sent the worksheet back as it was homework (did not want child to be singled out). I took photographs though.
My child is 11. My kids went to an International School abroad until December where religion just did not get a look in (so many kids from different backgrounds) so this is a massive struggle for us all. The "science" teacher is also my child's form tutor so there is no avoiding him.

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