Please can someone answer this simple question about state selective schools?

Disruptive kids go to grammar school as well, you know. So do violent ones, sometimes.

smokepole I'd have thought NVR was right up the street of a person with dyslexia (my dyslexic DS would love it). Both my DDs - severely dyspraxic - passed the 11+ for our superselective (DD2 we know passed with ease, DD1 we have no idea whether she flew or scraped because in those days they didn't give the placings it was just yes or no). They had to do VR, maths, English and DD2 also had to do SPAG which DD1 didn't have to do because it didn't exist in those days. Neither DD had problems with VR, they would both have had issues with NVR though because of their dyspraxia. However, kids with SEN conditions get reasonable adjustments when they take the 11+ so that should even things out.

If you would send your children privately if they failed the 11+, you do not support the system of selection. You support a cheaper alternative to private schools for yourself.
Sec mod schools must have loads of pleasant children in them, who didn't quite make the grade but whose parents weren't so frightened that they would fail that they paid for tutoring. Children like laqueen's in every respect but the tutoring. What, do they all turn into hooligans the moment they start a non selective year 7? And if you think that, how can you possibly support selection if you feel it has that effect on previously perfectly nice 11 year olds?

Rabbit. DD1 is Dyslexic 'Failed' because of NVR DD2 Dyspraxia Scrapped through because of 119 on NVR 'lowest score allowed' very lucky.

At the moment NVR is a part of the Kent test , I know they are trying to change the test, I don't know whether NVR is going to stay in the 'new test'

NVR/VR are possibly the worst tests and probably the ones that are tutored for, they give the 'prep school' children an advantage because state primary schools do not teach technique.

this report suggests better results at A level in NI, but I know that's not exactly an in depth analysis.

It is also interesting that the best performing schools in NI are not just grammar schools but Catholic grammar schools. Not sure exactly why that is, but it is widely reported to be the case.

meh
this is the official site with NI results on it.

IME the 11+ was far less discriminatory against dyspraxic kids than the national curriculum is. However had NVR been part of it that might not have been the case - who knows? Dyspraxic kids get special consideration in the 11+ anyway, I'm sure dyslexic kids do too. There is no suggestion that kids at the comps in super selective areas don't get academic educations, either. As several posters have pointed out, their results are similar to or better than some grammar schools in wholly selective areas, at least so far as the high and middle attainers go.

I once tried to find the results for N Ireland which was fully selective, as compared to other places e.g. Norfolk (fully comprehensive). Had no joy. Can anyone point me at these?

Floggingmolly. They have obviously managed not to 'select' low attaining pupils , well done to that comprehensive....

Sorry, don't know what you mean smokepole.

Where I live there are certain comprehensive schools who do a sort of selection by stealth. That really gets my back up ... the results are just not honest.

There are some 'selective' modern schools though Minty....

The comprehensive my dd attends results for last year were:
97% - 5+ A - C; 94% - 5+ A -C including Maths & English. That's not significantly different to previous years either, it's consistently outstanding.
It's non academically selective, but is a faith school...

That hardly has any particular bearing on those results, though? The two local private schools are nowhere near that good.

Actually Hakluyt money with disruptive, poor attitude, drugs etc behaviour go very much hand in hand in a fair number of settings as I am sure you know. I observe a fair amount of 'yobbish' behaviour at at one our local independent 'comprehensive' schools.

Oh its really so simple: in an area where 25% or so go to grammar schools there are no comprehensive schools.

I

If results don't differ what is your beef?

Grammar kids and their parents are happy,comp parents are happy.

I think its right that 25 -30% of children have the chance of an academic education in a selective environment.

The selection process should not come down to one day and 'dots or sequences of lines' that discriminate against bright Dyslexic or Dyspraxic kids. The selection process should involve written work undertaken in 'controlled' conditions . The teacher could get the most able pupils (who could be grammar material) to do an 'assignment' with another teacher in a separate classroom and tell them its important. They do not need to know it formed part of an 11+ exam. That could be one way to eliminate a little bit of 'tutoring' it could also be used so that if a pupil struggled in one test, a good score on the controlled assignment would 'cancel' the poor score in one of the tests.

Surely it's the crux of this particular discussion. Selection at 11 is a Good Thing but only if done properly (e.g. in Sutton, Kingston etc) rather than when done in the way that Kent does it. The Kent model 'selects' too many people. Superselectives and comps is the model that serves all needs best.

Hakluyt you always advance a simplistic point of view for this debate.
I think CallMeaCynic makes some credible points. Furthermore the crude stats will camouflage DC who would have done better at a selective school or those who would have done better not being at the bottom of an enormous comprehensive.
As I said the independent 'high schools' equivalent serve their cohort very well so it is not necessarily selection that is the problem but a lack of parental choice to best fit their DC plus a narrower choice of extracurricular activities in some state high schools.

LaQueenOnHerHolibobs I posted a question on the other thread asking why you think it is that a Grammar school that is 100% selective does not do significantly better then a selective school like Parmiters which only selects 25% on academic ability. I would be interested in knowing your views on this.

As your DD is going to an all girls GS perhaps this school may be more relevant: www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jan/23/watford-grammar-school-girls-gcse-rankings

You know as well as I do that wholly selective authorities necessarily send rather more than 'top set people' to grammar schools. They send 25% or more there - that's more than 'top set', it's a much wider banding and the real outliers will still be outliers in catchment area grammar schools. That's one of the reasons why wholly selective areas like Kent don't do better, because they are doing the whole selection thing badly.