Please can someone answer this simple question about state selective schools?

Boulevard I think you have a good point. I know so many teachers and very few of them are in permanent jobs, even maths and science teachers. There definitely are more teachers than jobs.

My theory is that the difference is due to the increased desirability of teaching as a career in NI, rather than the selective system.
But others may disagree. Hard to prove either way, though it would be interesting if you could find out applications per teaching job in NI compared to England.

The one thing I would say is that in a lot of areas here (maybe less so in Belfast admittedly) there really isn't an issue with there being undesirable or particularly poorly performing schools. I'm in a rural area within realistic travelling distance of three large towns, and there is not a single school in any of them that my heart sinks at the thought of sending my child to. Obviously I have preferences, but there are none of them that are a frightening prospect.

I think there is something of a misconception elsewhere that kids here are thrown on the scrap heap at age 11 if they don't get to grammar school, and it's not true at all.

I'm not arguing that your numbers are wrong btw, just pondering out loud! I looked up the website of one of the Christian schools at random earlier and it covered pre school to GCSE. It was a bit of an eye opener actually, as leaving aside the ethos, which wouldn't suit most people, lets just say that it didn't look like it would be a suitable choice for anyone wanting their kids to learn about science for example!

Oh, yeah, some of them could be the preps attached to the grammars.

I got the figure from DENI website. I forgot to check if they were primary or post primary..

actually, I've just taken the less lazy approach of looking it up! They're mostly independent Christian schools, of the type that is unlikely to appeal to the 'average' parent. Wonder how many kids they educate?

Dione I've only just noticed your post about 17 fee paying schools, I had no idea there were 17, I thought there was just Rockport. Is that the name? The one in Holywood.

Where are the others, do you know?

But Dione, what I was trying to get across is that a lot of that isn't actual choice, it's that you go to the appropriate school for your demographic niche. Once you rule out all the schools you can't go to because of your religion/gender/11+ result/bus route, there's often not much choice at all.

Unless you live within commuting distance of Belfast and are choosing from the central grammars there. Even Derry has only one state-run grammar; Catholics have 2x single sex and a co-ed to choose from (source:Wikipedia). Enniskillen looks similar.

I'm in a city and when the time comes for DS to transfer, the choice is dizzying. Single sex, co-Ed, Catholic, Quaker, state, integrated and now some grammars are specializing.

I think I cross posted with boulevard. In my nearest town there are kids who come from 30 miles away in order to attend the local Catholic grammar. It's a very very good school , so again it's hard to actually work out if that is because the parents want their kids educated in a Catholic school, or because it's got the best results. Bit of both presumably. They travel the same distance to come to the comprehensive which has less than stellar results, but a good overall reputation.

LaVolcan, there aren't really private schools in NI, as far as I know there is only one fee paying school. Although you can attend the 'voluntary' grammars as a fee paying student, but in reality very very few pupils do, the vast majority are not fee paying.

It is also not the case that there are Protestant schools, there are state schools and Catholic grammars, but not Protestant grammars, although it is of course the case that by default the majority of pupils at most state grammars are from a Protestant background. But some grammar schools in an area where there is no Catholic grammar will have a fairly mixed intake. And there are integrated schools which actively seek to have a fairly evenly balanced intake.

There are not very many comprehensive schools, although they are more prevalent in some towns than others. Afaik, there are more Catholic grammars than state grammars, with Catholics making up a smaller proportion of the population. I'm not sure how that corresponds to actual places available at grammar schools, as obviously they will have different sizes of intake, but I'm guessing that it might equate to having a wider choice of schools available, since all the state schools are also available to Catholic pupils too. In the area where I live, the most oversubscribed school is the one comprehensive. It is the only comprehensive in about a thirty mile radius, but its also the only integrated school in the same radius, so its not clear if its popularity is because of its integrated nature, it's comprehensive nature, or a combination of both.

I have no idea how the education system works in the rest of the UK, but what it really great about here is that there is none of this crap about your parents having to be able to afford to live in a particular area in order to get you into a decent school. Selection at 11 isn't perfect I admit, but it's a lot fairer than getting stuck with a lesser school on the grounds of your address. And also, the non grammars have often got very good reputations too. Many non grammar pupils go on to university for example.

I've just been looking at entrance criteria, and despite the near-complete faith segregation, ironically faith criteria are not on there. Just a vague statement about sharing the school's philosophy. I guess given the climate there, they trust people to know their place!

Sorry, x-post.

"Is there a choice of a catholic and Protestant for everyone?"

Well, theoretically, but people tend to stick with the religion they were born into...

Seriously though. Yes, most areas will have both types of school. What tends to happen is the Catholic kids will go to the Catholic school, so the Education And Library Board (LEA equivalent) run schools, theoretically non-denominational, become Protestant by default. And their daily act of worship will be CofE (CofI) style anyway.

I suppose if you live in a rural area that is very, er, monocultural, you might only have one choice. But then you'd probably just travel to the 'right' school.
Kids came on quite epic journeys to get to my central Belfast grammar. And NI is so small that most of it is within commuting distance of a city, depending how long you're prepared to spend sitting on the Ulsterbus of a morning.

Well, where 40% of kids go to grammar, there aren't going to be any genuine comps, are there?

How many genuinely comprehensive schools are there in N Ireland, i.e. ones taking the full cross section of ability? If the Grammar Schools take 40% of the bright children, and the private schools scoop up some more, there doesn't seem to be much scope left.

Two things that spring to mind about the NI system:

1. There are actually 4 main types of school: there are grammars and high schools, but each of these comes in Catholic or Protestant flavour. Also some of these are single sex (and there is a smattering of integrated schools). So in practical terms each DC may not have a lot of choice in their school.

2. There is usually an oversupply of teachers in NI, more people train than can be employed (not sure if this is still the case). Certainly there is a lack of the sort of jobs that the brightest graduates would normally be expected to take. So better quality teaching maybe?

High schools, comps and there are 17 independent (private, fee paying) schools.

It's not a secret that you have cleverly unearthed, but I'm happy to say wow, well done if that's what you were hoping for!

Huh?

2012/13 stats for Northern Ireland.
79.6% of yr12 children achieved 5 or more GCSEs A*-C.
97.3% of grammar school pupils achieved 5 or more GCSEs A*-C, 67.2% of children in non grammar schools did the same.

65.2% of yr14 children achieved 3 or more A-levels (A-C). 77.2% of grammar school pupil achieved 3+ A-levels (A-C), 45.4% of non grammar pupils did the same.

In the academic year 2012/13, 41.3% of children attended grammar school, 58.7% attended non grammars.

NI is a wholly selective system. Grammars must accept pupils to their capacity.

LaVolcan Could I add that if the figures are by children educated in the LEA two of those said Boroughs are homes to 'superselective schools', so selecting children from a very wide catchment area. I don't know these areas but in the case of super selectives, there are two possible scenarios that could (not to say they are) affect the perceived overall academic attainment within an area:

Children from outside the area with very high academic abilities are increasing the overall number of high level achievers in the area, altering the balance between high, middle and bottom achievers in relation to national averages.

Children from outside the area with high academic abilities are displacing lower academic achievers who are been educated outside the area due to insufficient school places to accommodate both the existing and the extra.

Again, to stress, I've nothing to suggest that this is in fact happening.