Thoughts on DD's A Level choices

Yes, there is absolutely no way a Physics degree would be possible without A Level Maths. If 16 year olds are unsure of their next steps (and many who think they are sure, then change their minds) then doing subjects which they can continue to the next level, can be seen as pretty important.
This is why people were concerned about the original OPs child's choice to do Physics and Economics at A Level without Maths, because continuing with these beyond A Level without Maths is pretty much impossible, or perhaps possible with Economics but at a very limited selection of places. The Ops child wanted to do Law, so provided she actually sticks with Law, the lack of Maths would not be a problem for applying for Law, although many thought it would result in a lower result in Phyiscs A Level, which is worth considering if applying for a very competitive course such as Law.

It isn't right to do subjects you have absolutely no interest in or are rubbish at, but at the same time, the advice to 'just do what you enjoy' is clearly problematic too, because combinations current subjects do affect what is available at the next stage.

The Russell Group publish a document called 'Informed Choices' which gives advice to Year 11 students choosing A Levels and degree courses. It clearly points out what is required by these universities and which subjects are more highly regarded or seen as soft options. I think most Year 11s receive this now, as reading it BEFORE A Level choices is really important, but I am aware from Mumsnet and speaking to a few people I know with children of this age, that not everyone receives it.

I would advise all parents with children of this age to read this document, because it is very clear and so useful.

Agree, rare to have more than one syllabus in a school. our experience came from visiting several 6th forms when DD1 was chosing where to move to.

One of the other reasons they seem to advise on not taking physics without maths is that maths is essential to take physics further. And a high proportiin taking physics A level seem to want to do that.

An individual school is unlikely to be offering more than one syllabus. They will certainly tailor their teaching to the needs of the individual classes, but need to choose the syllabus and buy the resources for it, well before the students start. So yes, different schools will choose different syllabuses, but are unlikely to offer more than one at A level.
Your child has probably been given the syllabus to put in their file, in the very first lesson. You will be able to see which board they are sitting the exam with and which specific syllabus.
Some schools may also offer some kind of applied science/physics. These courses are usually in less depth, in terms of theory, so may have lower entry requirements. If you are offered a course and told maths is not required for that particular syllabus, I would just ask for confirmation that it is equally valued by universities, to those courses which really do require maths. Again,just worth checking, rather than finding out a year later.

In some subjects such as History, schools may offer several different options from the same Board, to cater to the expertise of staff. So for example, some classes may study modern history and others medieval history. These would be chosen in advance by the school and resourced, long before it was known who would be in the different groups. By the time the students in a set are confirmed (which is really only after GCSE results) it is too late to be switching and changing. Schools build up expertise in the requirements of one board in that subject and do not switch lightly. Whatever they have chosen can be tailored via the teaching to the differing needs of the students, rather than via the course itself.

Of course, if a school has very able students,they might choose a particular course, in the way many schools of this type choose IGCSE syllabus rather than standard GCSE. However, then all of the students will be following that course.

Circular that explains why there are so many different experiences and views about it. As dd's school is science specialist they will have several physics A classes and they will have a different cohort for each I reckon.

It makes sense to have a different syllabus for each group according to their strengths.

Coming back to the studying physics without maths discussion. I was under the impression from many 6th form visits that A level physics courses vary quite widely, with some being far more mathematical than others. I remember one head of physics saying maths was absolutely not necessary as it was a broader based physics syllabus, another saying that A grade GCSE maths was necessary, but if student not taking AS maths they would be taught all the maths needed in Physics.
DD1 (yr13) is taking A level Physics, OCR A which is quite a mathematical course, needed A grade Maths GCSE, at least AS maths recommended. She chose Physics because she enjoyed it and was good at it (A* GCSE),rather than wanting to study science further. She was indifferent about Maths but took it to support the Physics.
She now loves maths and has done far better at AS maths than physics. She is continuing with both at A2, but I suspect in for a tough year pulling her physics up.

Maths is one of those subjects that can go either way. Very different at A level to GCSE, and you really don't know till you try. But so useful for whatever your DC may want to apply for.

What I mean by a level playing field at 18 chocolate, Of course some are more ahead than others but at 18 they can't pay their way into academic privilege for the first time. I think this makes a lot of parents very uneasy.

Sure if you want to be an academic stick to RG and Oxbridge. The vast majority of people don't want to be academics though.

I absolutely agree that life is made up of much more than exam results and things like character and attitudes make a real difference.

This was a thread about A Level options, by a parent of someone hoping to study Law. I think the points I have made are absolutely relevant for someone wishing to follow that path. A considerable number of parents feel they lack the information required to help their children make the best decisions about subjects to study etc. I have worked in the system for many years and seen literally thousands of 16 year olds make choices and the immediate consequences of them for the next stage. I have also known many parents and children from other institutions who have said that looking back, they would have made different choices at 14 or 16 or 18 if they had been given more information about the implications of those choices. Threads like these are about sharing that information, because that is what posters have asked for.

What happens beyond their A Levels and degrees is up to them and more than A Level and degree results will determine it. A Level subject choices and grades are just one, albeit important element in it. If we can help our children have more options open to them as they progress, that can only be good. And accurate information is a key factor in that.

And I love the idea that at 18 the playing field is wide open. Call me a cynic, or perhaps a realist, but I really don't think the evidence shows this. Children from more affluent backgrounds, whether they go to comps in leafy suburbs, state grammars or independent schools, face the world at 18 in a much stronger position than those from deprived backgrounds and sink schools. I really don't know how you can see a level playing field. Providing accurate information to everyone though, does help to make the field just that little bit more level.

My ds's is a lecturer in Economics. He hasn't got Maths A level .

Chocolate it's not the bleedin olympics!

People are comprised of more things than certificates on pieces of paper largely obtained through privilege.

Character, hobbies, life experience and even 'soft' subjects all play a part in people finding their niche and an A level in eg.psychology will probably put someone studying eg. Law at an advantage in the real world, perhaps years down the line, not a disadvantage.

I hardly think in 2014 Universities and big employers want all the same students with all the same subjects, at the same level. Everyone knows that expertise is gained over time with experience. I refuse to believe that lives are set in stone by 3 letters at the age of 18.

Perhaps that's wishful thinking as you say and the scrapheap is a real alternative but I also think perhaps your anxious conviction about having the perfect hand is coloured by the fact that at 18 the playing field is wide open and success can no longer be paid for, hothoused or catchmented into.

The thing is, many schools have a track record of not giving great advice.

With her B at GCSE, she is likely to pass......so in that sense, they have not misled her.If they have told her that an A grade is a good possibility, then that would not be correct, but I doubt they have actually said that.

Remember that some schools have a track record of directing pupils onto courses which are easier/equivalents in order to boost their standing in league tables. And some have failed to give crucial information about what the implications of certain choices at GCSE or A Level are for entry to the next stage, or the combinations which are necessary for the next stage. So whilst schools should be a fully reliable source of information for their pupils and parents, they are not always.

It's a nice idea that not having the 'royal flush' of grades, is somehow limiting for a number of non-Oxbridge courses and that lower grades or less traditional subjects might open more doors. Tbh, that is wishful thinking, as high grades in traditional subjects will always be useful. Yes, if someone has a specific vocational route in mind, there might be courses of more use. However, if you are thinking of something which requires going to university, great grades will always be a door opener.

Not everyone can have top grades. Bs at GCSE and whatever follows them at A Level can all open doors to a successful, happy life. It is just that at 18, slightly different doors might be open. It is just worth knowing that.

I find this sheep like linear approach quite surprising. Dd is at a specialist science school (comp, sorry). If they thought she couldn't do physics without maths they would have told her so.

My guess is that the statistics on particular groupings are high because everyone is aiming for the same model, the Oxbridge combinations. This will then lead to a career at the high end of a profession or in academia. But there are dozens of courses which cater for very real employment needs in the real world. Having the royal flush demanded by Oxbridge might be too limiting for these courses.

Of course maths is a key part of an economics degree, but for a degree in history it is less likely. they all use calculators these days anyway

But Hakluyt your DD went to an 'academic' grammar. Is that where you're extrapolating from? If so, I'm surprised at all the B grades at GCSE....... On the other hand if you're extrapolating from the sec moderns in your area, what is it that they do in their Sixth Form to fly against the stats that Wombat describes? Lots of parents would pay a small fortune for that :)

Haklyut, well statistically yes, you must know unusual people, if you are talking about those currently taking A Levels, rather than those of the 80s or early 90s. People with a B at GCSE in maths or a pure science, have D or E as their most likely grades at A Level. Of course there will be some (few) who go onto get A and a higher number to get a B and C, or U too, but D and E is the most achieved grade. If you look at ALIS results which schools and colleges use, you will see that based on GCSE result profiles, statistics are given for the liklihood of each grade at A Level. Although there will be people who get every possible grade from a B starting point, as I say,the most likely outcome is D or E at A Level.

"Daughter, it is not impossible to get an A at A Level from GCSE grade B, but unlikely."

Really? I must know an awful lot of unusual teenagers, then............

Daughter, it is not impossible to get an A at A Level from GCSE grade B, but unlikely. In subjects such as Maths and Pure sciences, it is even more unlikely, hence many places requiring an A at GCSE.
However,of course not everyone is aiming for, nor can achieve an A. As someone upthread said, her profile would suggest Cs and DS at A Level, which can be useful grades onto a range of courses at certain universities. And you are right, it is good not to have a sense of limitation before you even begin. At the same time, being realistic is also important, especially when you start to look at universities and courses towards the end of the L6th.
The world has changed. The grades your daughter achieved at GCSE would have been considered very good back in our day. They are still good grades, but there has been grade inflation and candidates getting onto the most competitive courses at the most prestigious places these days, have very high A Levels and before that, usually a string of A*\A grades at GCSE. And yes, many of these students are from private and selective state schools....but many are also from Comprehensives too.

Good luck to your daughter.

I also think that private school pupils will aways have an advantage in the professions regardless of results - it's just the way it is. Fortunately the dividing line is slightly less stark than it was in my day. I think what others have said about finding the optimum career trajectory rather than fighting for the 'top' one makes sense.

Thanks for explaining Kittieslane. She clearly does have to work her socks off, but I don't want to give up before she has even started because of general statistics. I took her to the BTEC college and they turned us away, saying she should do A levels. She has done a lot better than I did, and that was without much pushing from me. This year will be different though, might be time to enlist a tutor and a different, less trusting parenting approach.

I realise your daughter's GCSEs are more of a mix than this -- it was just to illustrate that the predictions for A level tend to be slightly below rather than above, their GCSE performance.

I don't think anyone's saying that she can't get an A, just that it's (statistically) unlikely from her GCSE grades, and thus she might be at a disadvantage when applying to university.

From Which?:
'Because of the assumed connection between your GCSE and A-level results, it’ll be down to you to prove you’re able to achieve top grades. Bs and Cs at GCSE are suggestive of Cs and Ds at A-level - which won’t be enough to get into some unis.'

Luckily for her, she will still do AS levels. Thus if she works her socks off and does well as AS, her predicted A2 grades could well be higher than a prediction based on her GCSE results. Good luck to her!

Chocolate are you saying that if she got a B at GCSE she can't get an A at A level? She did no work for gcse at all, she is much more focused this year and in small classes. She is at an outstanding science specialist comp, nearly all the London schools demand B, some C. There are none demanding A that I know of, only the selectives and privates.

Someone said upthread that they go through all the maths again in physics A.

And to people who look in the prospectus to see what specific subjects are a definite requirement, you will find that there are usually very few definite requirements. however, this does not mean it is good or even advisable not to take certain subjects. So Maths might not be an absolute requirement in many subjects, but is highly desirable, and candidates with it are more likely to get offers, when having that subject is a big advantage, if not deemed absolutely vital.
If in doubt, speak to the universities and ask about the typical profile of their students in terms of subjects and grades achieved. The grades mentioned in prospectuses can also be a little misleading. Whilst the prospectus might say the offer is AAB for example (and is) the vast majority of people on popular courses have grades far better than that. Offers may well not be given to most candidates who have predictions of AAB, but to those with A*AA for example.
So the point is, don't look for courses where you just scrape the requirements,mor make choices of A levels based on scraping requirements. You need to be looking to optimise yourself as a candidate for that subject,if it is highly competitive....this means the best subject combinations and grades, not just the minimum requirements.....because so many candidates will have so much more than the minimum requirements.

I agree with rogue dad. Depends how fixed she is on law. Many 16 year olds change their mind, so maintaining flexibility is good for most, and that means subject combinations which allow you to continue any of them to the next level. Maths will allow that.

Daughter, in my school, someone would not be allowed to do Physics A level without an A in Maths GCSE as a minimum. The majority of people taking Physics A Level,will be doing Maths A Level and often Further Maths too. It does require high levels of mathematical ability. The few who are not doing Maths A level, will usually have an A* or at very least an A an GCSE maths. Tbh, the chances of a high grade in Physics A Level, without at least A grade GCSE are very low.

Of course, a lot of your course options and universities available to you are determined by your GCSEs, which are also then the best predictor of success at A Level. She has been accepted onto the courses, by a place which clearly has lower requirements than many....very many places want an A at GCSE to continue to A Level now. Her clutch of Bs, with a few As thrown in will be fine for many places, but don't predict the A level success needed for the top places and most competitive courses. I don't say that to be cruel, but I do think it is important for parents and pupils to be aware of the likely outcomes from different starting points.

I lose economics and psychology for maths if she wants to keep her options open - neither are facilitating A levels and maths opens rather more doors. If she's set on law though it's less of an issue. I guess I agree with Cerisier!

She means perhaps consider the legal executive route.