How bad will it be to start Y7 not knowing times tables?

No, I agree!

I have another son who is dyslexic, he struggles with times tables, yet is good at mathematical problem solving.

It is so hard to get kids to remember stuff by rote if their brain isn't wired for that!

We are practising times Tables quiz ( an app) , but we always fall off the homework wagon mid holiday...

Bravepotato - I take your point but I also think ElephantsNeverForgive and Hakluyt also have made good points - however your child knows their times table facts (and I think we have to have the scope to allow a number of methods - memorisation/ mnemonics/ tricks/ patterns/ counting up swiftly/ etc...) - what is clear is sound times table facts (both forward as standard whole number mutiplication from 0 x 0 to 12 x 12 and backwards (or inverse) facts so 36 divided 9 = ?) are crucial for underpinning further maths.

If you have mastered your multiplication tables then secondary (up to GCSE) curriculum is much more straightforward to access. If you're still struggling to work this stuff out - it's a lot more tricky - not impossible - but not straightforward.

This may help explain what I mean: www.greatmathsteachingideas.com/2014/01/05/youve-never-seen-the-gcse-maths-curriculum-like-this-before/

HTH

When I did exams - in Scotland in the late 70s, we did O grade Arithmetic as well as O grade maths, they were valued as separate subjects.

Exactly, if your comfortable with maths and like solving puzzles you can work around not knowing your tables. Dyslexics like me and DD1 like maths because, unlike spellings, you can work the answer out, you don't have to rely on wonky memory cells.

If the sight of a maths paper panics you, having a good grasp of tables, (number-bonds and place value) is an enormous help. Throw in a basic understanding that fractions are just division and you can tackle whole chunks of SATs and y7/8 maths papers calmly.

"Being good at times tables us nothing to do with being good at maths."

Absolutely not. But if you aren't "good at maths", knowing your tables backwards, forwards and upsidedown with fast recall will make a huge difference to getting the maths qualifications you might need.

My dd is a case in point.

Being good at times tables us nothing to do with being good at maths.

The skill to retain times tables answers is probably closer linked to general memory skills, being able to learn spellings etc.

My youngest cannot do times tables fast, he gets "into trouble" for being slow, yet he is very good at maths in general. He just hates doing any sum without thinking about the answer.

Times tables are really a tool for those people, like me, who are NOT great at maths, a crutch for the less able.

Meanwhile my son can convert any amount of Euros to pounds faster in his head than I can type it into a calculator, so he will be fine.

Hakluyt

That's interesting.

I'm a geek, I do maths problems for fun but I don't trust times tables. I was asked yesterday, 'what's 7 x 7' I said 49 without thinking, then said I think that's right, it sounds right but I had to check to be sure.

Ds2 is dyslexic, we spent hours doing times tables!
He still cant remember most of them but he knows the tricks above.

He also uses his fingers to do 6x - 9x:

If you are doing 8x7
On one hand put down 2 fingers leaving the difference from 5-8 up. So three fingers up.
On the other put down 3 fingers, representing 7.
Add the fingers up together, so 3+2=5.
Times this by 10=50.
Multiply the folded fingers on each hand together, 2x3=6
Add this to the 50 and you get 56.

It works for numbers 6-9.

Ds knows 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s,and 10s.
He goes over 10 by breaking it down so
12x14 becomes
10x14 + 2x14 =140+28=168.

Hth (its late, Im tired, could be gobbledgook).

This is a very good book of techniques if you can't learn you tables, and only 1p at present via Amazon. It has been out of print for a while.

sorry forgot link to Timez Attack - www.bigbrainz.com/

Do you know what - if there isn't any underlying reason - learning difficulties (maybe dyslexia/ dyscalcula) - then maybe what you're doing isn't working.

DD1 had her struggles with maths and it took us a while to twig she learns best by doing and learns more quickly through visual demosntration than verbal explanation.

so our solutions:

also agree with above that www.multiplication.com has great resources/ explanation & games are useful.

also games on mathschamps (spread across age ranges): www.mathschamps.co.uk/#home

also games on Woodlands Junior School Maths Zone: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/ - just select multiplication and links through to lots of great games.
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TIMES TABLE SNAP: Ordinary deck of cards (Ace = 1, 2 - 9 as marked, Jack = 10, Queen = 11, King = 12). Decide on a times table - say x 4. Shuffle cards and place deck face down. Write x4 down on a post-it note/ scrap of paper and place next to deck.

Flip first card - say it's 8 - first to shout out 32 gets the card - winner is the person with most cards in their deck.

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If the problem is that she knows them but needs to build up speed try Timez Attack. Just go for the free download version - with castle/ dungeon platforms. It will test your child and start from where they're at - you are cast as an ogre and you run through your castle/ dungeon solving multiplication table problems which are presented both as multiple additions and as traditional vertical problems. Every now and then you're quizzed and at the end of the level a giant ogre comes and quizzes you. It can be a bit stressful - but it really forces you to work more swiftly.

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I'd also discuss patterns with your DC. I think a lot of schools miss the boat on this one.

First off - do they get doubling and that x2 is effectively doubling any number. If they get that - then they can think of a lot of times tables as 'doubling'

So if you know your x2 and x3 tables cold (so either counting by intervals or just know them - you're actually well on your way):

x4 - effectively doubling x2 table facts
x6 - effectively doubling x3 table facts

x8 - well this is either doubling x4 table facts or you can think of it as
double x2 table fact and double again (2 x 2 x 2 = 8)

x12 - again this is either doubling x6 table facts or you can think of it as
double x 3 table fact and double again (3 x 2 x 2 = 12).

You can also think of x 12 as x10 fact + x 2 fact - so 8 x 12 can break down to (8 x 10) + (8 x 2) = 80 + 16 = 96

x10 - effectively doubling x5 table fact
Oh and by the way only x5 and x10 tables can end in 0
and only x5 tables can end in 5

so knowing 0 x anyting = 0 and 1 x anything = itself - and presuming you already know x 5/ x10 - with doubling that means you know:

x0, x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, x6, x8, x10 and x12

that leaves x7, x9 and x11.

Well let's leave 7 for last.

x9 - full of patterns
First off use your hand calculator - video here - basically with hands palm up and thumbs at far ends - all you need do is flip down the mutliple you want to use - so say 4 x 9 - flip down your left ring finger - you'll have 3 fingers up to the left (that's the tens digit) and 6 fingers up to the right of your ring finger (that's the units). 3 - 6 = 36.

There's also a brilliant pattern

0 x 9 = 0 (anything x 0 = 0)

pattern starts from x1 to x10
1 x 9 = 09
2 x 9 = 18
3 x 9 = 27
4 x 9 = 36
5 x 9 = 45
6 x 9 = 54
7 x 9 = 63
8 x 9 = 72
9 x 9 = 81
10 x 9 = 90

First off - in every answer for 9 x1 to 9 x10

so 9 x 4 = 36 - 3 + 6 = 9 or 9 x 8 = 72 (7 + 2 = 9)

by the way - the two digits add to 9 (in fact this trick works for all 9s times tables e.g. 14 x 9 = 126 (1 + 2 + 6 = 9)

And there's a pattern

Between x 1 to x10 for 9s times table - the tens digit is always one less than whatever the multiple of 9 you are calculating

so if it is 6 x 9 - then you know the answer starts 5 (one less than 6) and because you know that the units digit + the tens digit have to = 9 - gosh then if the number starts 5 the only possible answer for the units digit is 4 - so 6 x 9 = 54.

so 8 x 9 starts 1 less than 8 = 7? and 7 + ? = 9 - ? has to = 2 - so the answer is 72.

so that leaves 11 and 12.

Well 11 is easy -

11 x 9 = 99 (adding digits 9 + 9 = 18 adding again 1 + 8 = 9 - 9 trick still working).

12 x 9 - may be more tricky (either add up in your head 99 + 9 = 108 - or just apply doubling trick - so if you know your x6 table 6 x 9 = 54 and double that gives you 108 - (you don't have to do it 2 x 6 = 12 and then 12 x 9 you can do it 2 x 9 = 18 and then 18 x 6 or 6 x 9 = 54 and then 54 x 2 - basically 54 x 2 is easier as I don't like multiplying either x12 or x18 much.).

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So that's your 9s table squared away - let's try x11

Well gosh that's a doddle up to x10:

1 x 11 = 11
2 x 11 = 22
3 x 11 = 33
4 x 11 = 44
5 x 11 = 55
6 x 11 = 66
7 x 11 = 77
8 x 11 = 88
9 x 11 = 99

10 x 11 = 110 (with multiples of ten there are two ways of thinking about it you can either think 'add a zero on the end' - or you can think move digits over one column to the left - I find it helps with multiplying x10/ x100/ x1000 - to note how many zeros and then either add zeros or move columns to left accordingly - if you see what I mean:

eg 12 x 1000 - 3 zeros - so add 3 zeros behind 12 -giving you 12,000
or move the number 12 over 3 columns to the left and mark each new empty column with a 0

one jump left gives you 120
two jumps left gives you 1200
three jumps left gives you 12000

THERE IS A TRICK with X11 WITH TWO DIGIT NUMBERS >10

take the first digit and the second digit
pull them apart
in the middle add the first & second digit together
(sometimes you get an answer in the middle that is more than one digit - so you'll need to carry)

examples

13 x 11 - think first digit - (first + second digit) - second digit or
1 - (1 + 3) - 3 = 143

15 x 11 - think 1 - (1+5) - 5 = 165

now one that means you have to carry

78 x 11 = 7 - (7+8) - 8
= 7 - (15) - 8 means we have to carry the ten to the hundreds column
= (7 + 1) - 5 - 8
= 858

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OK so that's everybody but x 7

BUT WAIT you actually have done most of the work

you know

0 x 7 = 0
1 x 7 = 7
2 x 7 = 14
3 x 7 = 21
4 x 7 = 28
5 x 7 = 35
6 x 7 = 42

8 x 7 = 56 (can think of this as 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - so anytime you see 7 x 8 or 8 x 7 the answer is 56).

9 x 7 = 63 (use those tricks)
10 x 7 = 70
11 x 7 = 77
12 x 7 = 84 (either think of it in terms of doubling x6 fact or x10 fact + x2 fact)

so gosh that means only 7 x 7 is missing

I'm afraid there is no trick but I've always found it helpful to think of 7 x 7 as a SWINE which oddly enough rhymes with 49.

and there by all times tables x0 - x12.

HTH

Omg Clam that sounds just like my year 5 dd.

She hates maths but is a whizz on tables and mental arithmetic.It has boosted her confidence no end being ahead of and beating the top tables in these areas.

She has come on hugely this year because of it and I can see her steaming on next year.It all seems to be clicking into place and making sense since she learnt them.

I don't get how somebody like my dd can learn her entire tables faultlessly in a couple of months and other more able mathematicians can't and sometimes struggle.Why is that,it's more than memory?She can divide just as well and do multiplication/division of bigger numbers using her tables like lightening.

My daughter said a few girls at her school hadn't learnt it and struggled... Then she taught them the patterns to remember them.

such as your 9 times table...

1X9=9
2X9=18
so by the rest follows 10 to 90
and the 8 reduces im number from 8 to 0

so 5X9=45
following tje pattern add Ten minus one

6X9...is 54

each one time table has its pattern

I have a child in my current class who really struggles with maths; however, her mum has put a huge effort into making sure that, if nothing else, she knows her tables and number bonds. This child is my 'go-to' child during Oral/Mental starters, when the other, more mathematically able, kids are looking shifty and surreptitiously wiggling their fingers. It builds her confidence no end to be seen to be "better" than them.

if you really want her to get it, you need to practice every day.
we did it like this

1. say the table and once she has it, say it faster, so there is no 'working out' it is all recall
2. quick fire test her on the table mixed up. If she can't give you the answer instantly, repeat that one a few times
3. test the facts as division facts, so 12divided by 4 = ? and so on.

We had a penny jar, for every time we got through a table correctly a penny went in the jar (so in one session she got quite a few pennies)

We repeated one table til he had it, then the next day, did a quick tests of the previous table and started on the new one. Every day there was a revision and a new one, so she didn't forget the previous ones.

I also did patterns, so we tested square numbers (2x2, 3x3, 4x4 etc)

I think it takes quite a lot of effort to really get them well, and it is worth it, as it is one thing less to worry about when working out maths

The dc's have to practice with a pack of playing cards. Take out the picture cards so you're left with 1 (ace) to 10, shuffle and get through the pack in 2 mins. We've been known to do it every day, keeps them ticking over.

Their school learns up to the 13 x table. I need to start swotting up on that one .

It's interesting that everyone saying that tables arn't that important seem to be people with maths A levels or even degrees.

I think for people without an aptitude for maths tables can make a huge difference. My dd really struggled, but then had a very old fashioned teacher in year 6 who made them learn tables to 15 times by rote, bribing them with huge amounts of chocolate and having competitions, and spot checks (which, bizarrely, they all enjoyed very much). It made such a difference to dd- she was the sort of person who was never really convinced that if you multiplied 2 by 2 it would always be 4. But she ended up with an A at GCSE maths- and I'm convinced quick recall of tables was a big part of that. It gave her a solid platform to work from.

Another maths teacher here who thinks it will make her life a lot easier knowing them. I do lots of times tables games withmy classes who are weak as a pprevious poster said they underpin so much it will hamper her.

Don't just focus on one set I would throw questions at her randomly driving places in the car etc Knowing them in order means they have to start at 1x each time. Another one I use is throwing four dice two each of a different colour ie 2 red 2 blue total the same colour and multiply

Print out a multiplication grid from the internet. Test which ones s/he knows and colour those squares in. Then concentrate on those left. By 'know,' I would say that means within 5 seconds (absolute maximum) and no counting on fingers.
Get. Them. Learnt. Invaluable skill.

I didn't know my tables at that age, but I could work them out pretty quickly. I got a good A'level in Maths and further maths and studied a numerate subject. I know a Stamford Professor in Maths education who doesn't know hers.
Tables can be over rated. But being able to work around them and having confidence is crucial.

You don't need to know them but it will make life so much easier if you do, especially when you are working under time pressure as you will be at GCSE. Summer hols are great for learning times tables - will be well worth the effort in the long run.

we did practise them daily, and they stayed in her head for years 4 and 5 when they were being tested, after we stopped practising them they fell out of her head!

I'm sure knowing them would make maths much easier, but there are only so many battles I'm willing to have and this isn't one of them!