Is this a problem for medicine?

Very good post Wombat. Op says her DD is thinking about her initial reaction, which is positive in itself. I think many, many teenagers would have reacted exactly as the OP's DD did, but maybe not so many would have sat up to take stock quite so fast. I can't think her initial 17 year old reaction should cut her out from being medic material but perhaps her speedy questioning of why she reacted as she did should mark her in.

creamteas you know two applicants both with straight As at GCSE, both who got not even a single interview in Y13 (unusual in itself, but more so with straight As), both who failed to improve their BMAT score on their second attempt and both who got 'an offer' on the subsequent application. Are they identical twins ?

Was their offer for a BMAT uni the second time round? (there are several, so no danger of outing). What about their UKCAT, did neither improve that either? (it can make a difference at some BMAT unis). And did each only get one offer each on their second time round? (again, unusual).

I don't think it will affect her chances of getting a place.
I think it is normal to be disappointed in a situation like this. The question is how she then deals with the disappointment. People are right that resilience is needed. We all need to learn to deal with disappointments and to learn lessons from them, formulate a new plan and move forward.

I think the fact DD is disappointed does not mean she has no resilience or can't develop it. She may not have faced a failure before and so this is new to her. Lots of high achieving teenagers are a bit thrown by their first failure. You can use this to talk to her about the resilience issue. Can she see beyond her disappointment/sense it feels unfair, to a learning experience. Can she plan her next steps in relation to it?
If she cannot look at it in this way in a few days after the initial disappointment wears off, then perhaps she is too sensitive. Otherwise, this could be useful.
Who knows, perhaps she could even use this experience to answer the interview question 'Tell us about a time you have been disappointed and how you dealt with that disappointment'.

Talk it through with her and the wider issues about dealing with disappointment. It is good to be having this chat now about something like this, rather than about the bigger issues.
Incidentally a friend of mines son failed to get any offers for medicine two years ago, despite being great on paper and having done all of the right experience stuff. It was his first 'failure' and hurt a lot, but his parents rightly used it as a learning experience. He thought about it, assessed it, made new plans and moved into the future. He is now doing well on another course at a top Uni. He is also knows that let downs are not the end of the world and a bright future is still out there.

I do not really see that just because she was upset at rejection, then she isn't cut out for medicine. These children often get to be quite old before they get their first rejection/failure and it's often a bit of a shock - although does have to happen sooner or later and is a learning curve for them. My daughter was used to getting A/A*s in everything, so when an AS Law module came back as a D she was shocked, worried and v upset although a re-sit put it right. It was her first failure and thought she had done well in a subject she wanted to study at uni. I think it is quite natural to react like that if you are not used to any kind of blip in their lives.

Molio in both cases the BMAT result was about the same for both years. Obviously they updated their PS, but only more of the same WE, so really not a lot of difference between applications.

creamteas the difference may well have been in the UKCAT and/ or BMAT results. A poor showing in those can scupper straight A* students. Or it could have been their personal statement, which the second time around may have been significantly different, particularly in relation to maturity and what they gained from their placements. Since the placements aren't of any particular value in themselves, unless the student has gained something from them. Anyhow, the point is that clearly there may actually have been very substantive differences in the applications beyond the mere fact of having grades in hand and more work experience under their belt.

PiratePanda in my direct experience I'd say that music and sport are both excellent stressbusters and something the admissions tutors at Oxford and Cambridge like to see. It's not about the music or sport per se and obv doesn't trump grades/ BMAT/ evidence of having learnt from work experience.

Beck yes perhaps just too nervous at interview. Which isn't great. But I might be using stunners in a more selective sense - I don't think each and every medical applicant can be a stunner.

joan I very much doubt the school is trying not to risk the daughter's grades. Plenty of those asked to do the job emerge with a full hand of A*. From that narrow point of view, juggling heavy and competing demands would be good on a medical app, but there are plenty of other ways to show that capacity too.

I'd agree that the school may not want to get in the way of your daughter's grades by asking her to do unpaid staff work.

They really don't care in Medical school whether or not you were a prefect. Grades plus an obvious sustained interest in the subject is the key. Pretty much everything else is irrelevant.

Mental resilience is essential in medicine. It is tough and junior doctos have a pretty shitty life (constantly moving , poorly treated shift workers and not especially well paid (newly qualified F1 earn £21K)). I don't regret doing it (52 and working in medico legal arena) but I wouldn't encourage young people now without very careful thought. Girls especially are flooding in. 25% give up by F2 etc.
If she is so knocked by not becoming a prefect (which is pretty minor setback) does she really have the mental resilience to be successful in medicine?

I think rejection only hurts those that care, deeply, about their school and have put their all into it. Caring deeply is absolutely not a problem for medicine, or indeed any other avenue of study. It shows a committed person who really wants to put something back into school life. There will be other people who recognise this trait for the positive force it is and not reject it as being insufficient backbone!

It also means you can have freedom of thought. DD found the Head Girl's team were apologists for the Head. Never, ever, would she have become a "Yes" girl, who was not expected to have an alternative viewpoint. Which, of course, was why she was not short listed. She was the one with the backbone and intellect and inadvertently gained the freedom associated with the "backbenches".

As pp have said by far the most important thing is experience-they all come with a haul of fantastic grades.My OH is a lecturer and does some teaching of med students and the thing that sets successful applicants apart is relevant work experience. Given two (hundred!!) equal applicants things like D of E, music and sports really don't make a difference-it's experience that will make your DD stand out. Has she done any?

I agree with Hakluyt-loads of "stunners" come away without an offer- it is just such a competitive field. The course is also very challenging-are you sure she's suited to something like that if she's taken this (relatively) minor letdown so badly?

Just to add my really rather old now experience if it is helpful.

In a random two degrees of separation thing my SIL was two years above me at school. To this day she still laughs about me being run ragged as a senior prefect with all the charity and supervisory responsibilities that came with it.

SIL had been offered chance to be a senior prefect, rang a few admissions tutors who confirmed it wasn't really relevant so turned it down and concentrated on the A's she needed for Medicine.

Good luck to your daughter. Prefects were unpaid staff at my school. I think she is better devoting the time to revision, voluntary work or even some additional research in a medical field that interests her.

My daughter does law at uni and only have experience of medicine through my friends and her friends. As others have said, the main thing for medicine is grades and experience. As with law (at the better unis), all the students have top grades, some experience and a whole host of extra curricular activities. As you've said, your daughter has other extra curricular activities. When she comes to doing her personal statement, she will no doubt, start with too many words and then have to keep cutting it down to fit the 47 line limit. If you are anything like us, you will no doubt find that you will not be able to fit it all in anyway. They really won't care who's a prefect and who isn't but just like to see a well rounded student with other interests outside school. The two people I know who were accepted for medicine both had relatives in medicine and therefore heaps of experience.

At my DCs school, pupils who are going to apply for Medicine or Oxbridge are very unlikely to be made Head Girl or Head Boy (they have one of each), but might be a deputy. Because it is seen as too much work for someone who should be concentrating on their studies and relevant work experience.
She should be using the time this frees to study hard and show how suitable she is for Medicine. Being a Prefect is irrelevant - the school reference is only one of the pieces of evidence that will be considered, and is not the most important at all.

"Perhaps not an offer at a BMAT uni, but it must be almost unheard of for a 'stunner' to be left with no offer at all"

Well, I have heard of lots. One of the reasons that lots of kids opt for biomedical sciences is because they were rejected for medicine or dentistry first time round.

And no, Oxbridge, in my direct experience, do not care about flute or athletics for medical admissions. They care about activities that show that your child would make a compassionate, dedicated, ethical doctor.

Medical schools won't give the proverbial whether your DD is a prefect or not! (My DS is a medical admissions tutor). They want to see top grades, including an A Level in Chemistry, and clear dedication to becoming a doctor (e.g. volunteering in a nursing home, work experience as a medical receptionist). The school will NOT give her a bad reference.

I find the idea that universities care about such things as prefects or sport to be bizarre, frankly, and I've done admissions in several RG universities including Oxbridge.

Everyone applying for medicine is a 'stunner' (especially in their own little ponds at school!) and there just isn't room for them all.

I too would suggest thinking very carefully about medicine if she found the prefect rejection difficult.

Yes, molio I'm afraid in both my elder DS year and this years A2 DD's cohort I know of girls who didn't get offers - all the usual credentials - 8or 10 A*GCSEs , 5 As at AS ( in the right subjects) gold duke of Ed, hospice volunteering etc and no offers. And neither of them are arrogant at all.

But we don't know what goes on in interview, do we - they may have been too diffident or had a series of really bad days.....

For the elder DDs friend, she applied again post A level and got a place at Birmingham and the younger DDs friend is likewise planning another application this year.....

Perhaps not an offer at a BMAT uni, but it must be almost unheard of for a 'stunner' to be left with no offer at all

I don't think it is that uncommon at all. I have known two straight A* candidates with work experience not to get any interviews at all first time round. Both reapplied after A levels and got offers. The only difference between the two applications was the length of time doing WE (not not the type) and they had their A level results.

I mean this in the nicest way, but if she is very upset over not being a prefect maybe it is time to reconsider medicine?

The application process is horrible. There are young people with stunning grades and work experience who do not get offered places, every single year. Everyone applying is very, very good and there just aren't enough places for them all.

It's grim but you have to go in with the mindset that being rejected is a real possibility.

I doubt any university would give it any consideration. What she does need to do to be in with a chance at medicine is make sure she has some relevant work experience.

One of the local schools when I was growing up awarded prefectships to those who they thought needed to develop responsibility ie the ones who were a pain in the nect. Wasn't a good idea.

Beck medicine is one of the subjects where even at Oxford and Cambridge they do appear to care about flute and athletics. Not because they care about flute or athletics in themselves, but because they need to see evidence that a student will be able to deal with the huge workload/ stress. Being a prefect has nothing to do with this aspect of an application whatsoever and I agree completely that it's not a deal.

Incidentally, have you really known stunning candidates left with no offers? Perhaps not an offer at a BMAT uni, but it must be almost unheard of for a 'stunner' to be left with no offer at all. I'd say that if the academic side is all in place along with any aptitude test and work experience, then a rejection is likely to be either because of an arrogant air/ lack of empathy or evidence of being too easily stressed - both of which, for medicine, could be a problem and either one of which may be more likely to be found in those at the top of their school.