GCSE exams

chart53 in your original post you seemed to be criticizing the move to linear, claiming the number of exams taken in the summer season on the linear model is 'borderline insane'. And that your other DC's experience, on the modular model, was bad enough, but (by inference) at least not 'borderline insane'.

The thing is that there are vast numbers of kids out there who are not particularly stressed, who've quite enjoyed their two year course unencumbered with the irritation of sporadic bite sized exams and re-sits and who might well think your description of their last few weeks as 'borderline insane' was actually almost 'borderline insane' itself, so little resemblance does it bear to their reality.

creamteas may be an authority for his or her uni whose name he or she quite reasonably doesn't want to disclose, but it's fairly clear to anyone with much knowledge of HE that what he or she says about admissions, and what unis are looking for in applicants, is particular to his or her area and uni, but not a general truth.

Getting rid of modular exams has done a huge disservice to lots of students who are not good at holding lots of information but may be excellent in an employment situation
now they will not get grades that represent their true ability

my accountancy exams were the last time I had to memorise legislation clause numbers - now I am paid to know where to look

GCSEs had become more applicable to the world of work but have reverted back to the 1950's
(admittedly to the benefit of my children)

We're talking about modular exams HP, rather than exams taken early - although splitting say eleven GCSEs into different sittings does clearly make life easier than taking them all in one hit. Linear exams all taken in one sitting should be the litmus test.

creamteas thanks for that but I think you may quite regularly make the mistake that no-one else has 'inside info' about admissions. Loads of people do. And the top unis do not take people with crappy GCSEs in the absence of serious mitigation. GSCE grades matter hugely for the vast majority of those aspiring to a top uni, even if they don't much matter for your course at your uni.

Molio and Word Whether or not you believe me is up to you, I don't care either way. But just to explain where my data comes from.

After the firm and insurance offers are made, universities can get access to all the course application data, so for everyone that applied to us, we can see where students have opted to place their firm and insurance offers. We identify our main competitors from this data and so look for trends in who they are accepting and rejecting. This is not data in the public domain (and therefore privileged).

We also obviously find out when the A level results what grades universities are going down to. The first indication is where we are the insurance place. As firm institutions make their decisions on dropped grades, applications either come or don't come to us as insurance. Some institutions have always marketed themselves as not entering Clearing, and sometimes to do this, they are making bigger compromises in lowering grades for their firms.

Secondly, clearing itself is very different now. It used to only for people with missed grades to find places, but now there is lots of movement even from people who made their firm offer and don't technically qualify for adjustment. So, for example, if you applied to Manchester and didn't get an offer originally, but you now have the A level grades, applicants will see if they can get a place, even if they have a confirmed place at the firm.

So through Adjustment, general moving around and Clearing, we get a much broader sense of where institutions are pitching their acceptance. It is through monitoring what is going on, we learn what other institutions are doing.

I don't think I have said anywhere that all top institutions accept 5 Cs. What I have said is that a range of grades at GCSE is much more common than all As. Also that GCSE grades are not a the make or break selection criteria that some people were claiming they were.

I did tell DC that its probably a case of swings and roundabouts...

I don't think that children who take GCSEs early are necessarily at an advantage MissScatterbrain. In my daughter's case having to take Spanish in year 9 was a definite disadvantage; as was taking Art and Product Design, both coursework intensive courses obviously, as one year courses in year 10.

I agree that the playing field will be much fairer with linear exams for all - my DC is bitter about the fact that his peers at different schools did many of their exams while in Year 9 or 10.

I agree friendface. My elder DC had no option of early exams either. It's absolutely clear that the schools who played the modular game gave their pupils an advantage. It's far better to have a level playing field so that the results of those sitting exams can be properly compared. This system is far fairer. The linear system does also help students to learn how to juggle a large and varied workload. That's another good in itself.

Word I've already disputed it :), but creamteas has yet to respond. I think creamteas may be generalizing from his/her own department and uni, which seems not to require LSE/ Imperial type grades. I'm not sure creamteas gets how much variation there is out there. The top unis do not admit with 5 grade Cs (in the absence of very serious mitigation), end of.

HP my DD was one of those with a single A against her 10 A*. She wasn't in tears but she was certainly pissed off. My reaction was that she'd look peevish if she asked for a remark and she agreed but in fact the school insisted, so it went off and duly went up. All's well/ honour (nearly) satisfied :)

Haven't read the whole thread so it may have moved on, but DS did his GCSEs two years ago. At his school there was no option of early exam sittings so everyone sat the 25+ exams they had in one summer. DS's school can't have been the only one to do things this way, so I'm glad it's now compulsory and everyone is on a level playing field as, although I think DS was fine there must have been some who would have benefited from the modular system and would be disadvantaged towards their contempories who had done exams that way.

creamteas I have to dispute your assertion that universities such as LSE, Imperial etc regularly have students with 5 Cs at GCSE and a couple of Bs and Cs at A level.

Also, even if that were true, which I don't think it is, what does that say about our tertiary education system?

A student who only manages those grades is either of middling ability or has no idea how to apply their intellect or has no interest in doing so.

Is that person really going to thrive on a three/four year course that exists to ask a student to think, read and think some more?

The only reason why students in that category end up on UG courses is because they think they should and they are being sold as a necessity. Filling courses with students with no aptitude or interest in academic pursuits is a sure way to bring down standards!

I meant constitution as in mental constitution, not physical, HP.

I don't think exam stress and pallor is necessarily down to constitution. I think schools, some parents and the peer group all contribute to the stress levels felt by children. Some girls at DD1's school were in tears on results day because they got one A instead of the full set of A*s.

DD burst into tears when she opened the envelope because she got a B in history thanks to her disastrous controlled assessment - it was later upgraded to an A when an exam paper was remarked. The 10 A*/A weren't good enough!

She did F- all revision for her GCSEs and was lucky to get the results she did. The positive thing for her was that she realised she really had to work for her AS/A levels and has done so. Some of the girls who got the full set of A* seemed to rest on their laurels and did quite badly at AS.

It's survival of the fittest out there that's for sure and that also means mentally.

chart53 since GCSEs are not an end in themselves, it actually is to some quite significant extent how unis view GCSEs. Particularly since university degrees have become such common currency in the past decades.

I'm sorry that your DD and her friend are so drawn and pale but I'd say that that was down overwhelmingly to their constitution, rather than to the current model of GCSEs. DS is brown as a berry but bored with the long drawn out timetable of exams and his friends all look equally healthy. They're twiddling their thumbs to get the two maths papers over but meanwhile are out playing football or walking their dog.

And in response to your last post I'd say it may be more common for applicants to your uni to have a range of grades at GCSE but at Oxford or Cambridge or UCL or Imperial etc it's far more common to have a clear majority of A*/A grades, hence the circularity of these posts.

creamteas I don't think I've seen a post by you which isn't prefaced by 'as an admissions tutor' etc. You know very well that those unis haven't entered clearing, come on! What does 'privileged data' mean? Anyone in the industry knows that Oxford and Cambridge do not enter clearing. You can't hide behind 'privileged data'! Well, you can, obv. but it's not in the MN spirit!

Molio The data I see is privileged and, on the off chance that I am/or might be outed, I am not going to risk my job by naming specific universities.

I would say that it is more common to have a range of grades (eg 3xA 3XB 2xC 1xD) than either a clear majority of As or a clear majority of Cs.

I'll bet that where the big guns make a lower offer to a firm candidate they'll only do it if that candidate has other tariffable quals

Absolutely! And don't forget an A in General Studies ticks the A box for getting outside the student number controls.

creamteas I've only mentioned Oxford, Cambridge, UCL and Imperial and not in a 'hard hitter' context. But which of those has gone into clearing offering BCC as you claim, and which subject? I assume you're talking about 2013 entry?

I'll bet that where the big guns make a lower offer to a firm candidate they'll only do it if that candidate has other tariffable quals - grade 6+ music for example - those league table places are important!

creamteas I know a bit about admissions too but perhaps from a slightly different perspective. Different universities claim that their own preferred data is the most reliable predictor of degree outcomes. For example Oxford likes the data which says an unbroken string of GCSE A*s is the best predictor of distinction at degree level (which is not to say you need an unbroken string to get a place) and you say your own uni prefers ASs. That's fine. There are plenty of examples on each side. I completely accept your point that not all universities stick to their marketing message.

I think one should also not forget that a student with 5 grade Cs at GCSE is unlikely to shine at AS, especially if they've taken the view that they don't need more than minimal grades. So the quibble about which exams are relied on for admissions is only useful up to a point. There may be exceptions where a mediocre student comes into his own in the sixth form, but much more usually it's a consistent trajectory, mitigating circumstances apart.

Molio You don't have to believe me of course, but what 'everyone knows' about admission to good universities is often very far from the truth.

I know, for example, that some of the universities you listed as 'hard hitters', make offers to people that have Ds at GCSE (obviously not in a related subject) and have dropped from ABB to BCC in clearing to fill their places on a range of subjects (and not ones deemed to be 'soft').

I only know this as I work in admissions and, later on in the application process, we can get data on which universities were names as firm or insurance where people also applied to us. I also see when the A level results come out how far universities drop for applicants (where we are the insurance) and at what level universities go into clearing.

Remember, what universities say in public about admissions is also part of their 'brand identity'. So if you came to one of my open days, and asked me about what GCSE results we would be looking for, I would tell you that whilst we look at the whole application, we like to see evidence of exam success. But when I am making offers, you need to pass the threshold level (5x Cs including English and Maths) but it plays no other role in the application process.

There are some institutions that are very keen on GCSEs, Bristol is one. There are also a tiny minority of subjects (eg Medicine) where they matter. But these are a tiny minority, rather than the majority.

When AS levels go, GCSEs will probably be used more again. But this is a bit unfortunate as our data indicates that GCSEs results are not a good predictor of degree outcomes (which is exactly why we don't really use them).