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Original poster

Appeal hearing - panel did not ask me any questions

56 replies

butterfly8888 · 20/05/2014 15:32

Hi there,
First time posting here.
I had my appeal hearing yesterday. I was very prepared, did tons of research. Appealed on medical grounds to a faith secondary school. I felt it was a very strong case and in addition I tried to weaken the school's statement that admitting additional children would cause prejudice.
However, the hearing didn't go as I expected. I expected the panel to ask many questions. I planned to read up my presentation, but they said they'd read it and they didn't need to hear it. No questions were asked at all. It all felt rushed and seemed like they were trying to brush me off and they'd already decided it was a no and didn't want to waste time on it.
Surely if they felt it was a strong case they would've asked some questions?
I am really upset about this.
Any advice from anyone?

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lougle · 27/05/2014 18:51

Butterfly, the whole reason there are appeal panels is so that decisions can be examined for fairness and exceptional circumstances that do not fit neatly in a box can be considered.

The reason we sit on appeal panels is to ensure that people like you, who have strong cases for admission, are heard, are seen to be heard and their cases are given due consideration.

Now it could be that the panel agonised over every detail of your submission, absolutely desperately wanted to admit your dd, but the evidence for the school was overwhelmingly strong. However, their decision letter does not convey that in any way and the decision letter is the only evidence of their decision making process that you have.

You need to go to the LGO. They will be able to decide if due consideration was given. They will be able to sort this out.

All I can say is that it would be a brave, brave panel who ignored a letter from a medic stating that harm would come to a child if they weren't admitted.

prh47bridge · 27/05/2014 14:02

It took me two appeals and two references to the LGO to get my youngest son into my local primary school. That's how I got started on helping people with appeals. The school did not get annoyed with me nor did it affect us negatively in any way. I have yet to come across a case where the school has behaved unprofessionally after losing an appeal.

Quite apart from your daughter's needs, you will be doing future appellants a favour if you take this to the LGO. If you don't this appeal panel will carry on as it is and other parents will lose out.

If it is the LGO rather than the EFA it is just possible they will award your daughter a place without needing a further appeal. But even if a fresh hearing is ordered, you can do it.

Please don't accept this decision.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 27/05/2014 13:53

Thank you so much for your support and prh47bridge for your words of wisdom.
As to whether they are so full that they can't admit any further children, they claim they never went above their pan, their statement said that they cannot fit more than 30 desks in a classroom and the maximum in a group is 30. However they had one successful appeal last year, and another one 2 years ago. This still didn't take them over the pan as pupils dropped out in the meantime.
Also, the actual number of pupils on roll is considerably lower than the school's capacity set out by the government. Also in a number of teaching sets there are 31 pupils, which invalidates their statement of maximum 30 in a group. All these statistics formed part of my appeal.
As you say prh47 it seems to me that all they considered was that the admissions criteria was applied correctly which I never questioned.

I really do feel deflated. I do feel this was very unfairly done, however not sure if I can go through another possible hearing. The school would get really annoyed with me and if my child ended up there, it could affect us negatively.
Maybe it is just not meant to be and I should just accept it.
On the positive, our allocated school is a nice school and my daughter does like it, even though not as nice as the appeal school, so we are not in a terrible situation in that sense, however it really is far from us, which is the problem.

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prh47bridge · 27/05/2014 13:27

The letter fails to show they have followed the correct process. It looks like they have reached the end of stage 1 in the decision making process, decided there will be prejudice to the school in admitting your daughter and stopped there. The letter does not contain any evidence that they have considered whether or not the prejudice to your daughter outweighs the prejudice to the school.

Many appeals run by faith schools are fair. Sadly some appeal panels don't live up to the high standards set by most. You have had a poor experience with this appeal panel so your reaction is understandable but believe me that most panels are better than this.

If you go to the LGO (or EFA if this is an academy) and they award a fresh appeal the school will want to make sure they don't face a second reference to the LGO, so they will probably go out of their way to make sure the second hearing is fair.

You must take this to the LGO. It is possible the school is so full that they really can't admit any further children so that any appeal case would fail. But on the information you have posted you have a very strong case and I would have expected you to win.

If you need any help with taking this to the ombudsman you know where to come.

Messygirl · 27/05/2014 11:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YouCanTakeAHorseToWater · 27/05/2014 11:23

Butterfly, I'm so sorry, that must be so upsetting for you and your daughter.

Take prh47bridge's advice and get on to the LGO and complain about how this appeal has been handled and challenge this result. You are strong enough to fight on!

appealtakingovermylife · 27/05/2014 11:14

I'm so sorry to hear that. You must feel deflated:(
My appeal is in 16 days, similar circumstances. I'm not too hopeful.
Do you know how many appeals they heard and how many were successful?
It does make you feel that the process is flawed when you hear stories like this. Go with your gut feeling as to what you should do next, best of luck.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 27/05/2014 11:00

Got the letter today, my appeal was not successful.
The letter is very general and all it basically explains is that the panel was satisfied that the application of my daughter had been dealt with in accordance with the school's admission criteria as published by the governors. It goes into detail about the admission criteria, how many children applied and how places were allocated. The school was oversubscribed and as my child is not a regular church goer, she was not offered a place at time of admission.
There is one sentence saying 'as the school is clearly oversubscribed, compliance with your preference would clearly prejudice the provision of efficient education and the efficient use of resources.'
The letters mentions no specific detail about my child, our case, her medical condition.
They sent this letter to everyone. I am really upset. I completely lost my faith in the fairness of this system.
Maybe appeals run by local authorities are more fair, but if you are considering appealing for a faith school, I would say think twice. All the stress, the work that goes into preparing the appeal for nothing. The panel already made their mind up before I entered the room, it was obvious. According to their letter it was an unanimous decision.
I had letters from 2 different doctors saying that based on my child's condition, she needs to go to that school.
Any suggestions what I can do? I really don't think I can go through more stress and anguish with the ombudsman. If, let's say he ordered a fresh hearing, I don't know if I could go through this again, and I don't believe the outcome would be different.

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prh47bridge · 25/05/2014 01:11

That statement on its own would justify going to the LGO if you lose on the basis that it shows the appeal panel is taking into account matters they should be ignoring. Of course, given the medical evidence you already have strong grounds for a referral to the LGO should you lose.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 24/05/2014 21:48

That's interesting prh47bridge because at the hearing a member of the panel said that if I had proof that my child is now regularly attending church, that would add more weight to my case (I didn't have proof). This indicates that they are taking the admission criteria into account, which is regular church attendance and which is why she wasn't offered a place in the first place. Even though my grounds for appeal were medical.

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prh47bridge · 24/05/2014 21:33
  1. They are not allowed to take the admission criteria into account at all. Assuming nothing was wrong with the admissions process the only thing they are allowed to consider is the balance of prejudice. The admission criteria do not form any part of that. They certainly cannot say, "you've got good medical evidence but we aren't going to allow your appeal because we aren't happy with your church attendance."
  1. Within 5 school days but there is a get out for them in that they can miss this deadline if there is a good reason.
eddiemairswife · 24/05/2014 20:06

They have to notify you within 5 school days.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 24/05/2014 20:02

Some questions for the experts.

  1. I know that the appeal panel does not have to follow the admissions criteria, but how much are they allowed to take it into account? If it's a faith school for example, can the panel turn someone down because of insufficient church atrendance even despite medical evidence demonstrating that the child should go to that particular school?
  2. Within how many days do they have to notify the appellant of the outcome of the appeal? My appeal was on monday and the hearings finished that day, they told me they'd let me know this week by letter. However no letter has arrived yet. It is really frustrating.
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prh47bridge · 22/05/2014 00:24

The figures are for England only. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own ombudsmen. The website for the LGO is www.lgo.org.uk.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 21/05/2014 21:01

This is very interesting. On what website can one find this information? Are these figures for the whole of the UK?

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lougle · 21/05/2014 20:49

Yes - disregard my post of 19:13:02 completely. Smile

prh47bridge · 21/05/2014 20:45

I'm afraid Lougle has misread the document (and the link doesn't work - this is the correct link). In 2011/12 there were 1,119 complaints relating to admission appeals and a further 102 relating to admissions. Of these 921 complaints relating to admission appeals and 79 relating to admissions were investigated.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 21/05/2014 19:29

My letter with the date of the appeal arrived 8 school days before the hearing, as opposed to the 10 days required by the appeal code of practice. It did not contain names of panel members.

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lougle · 21/05/2014 19:13

This document gives the 2011/12 statistics. It says that 79 cases were investigated relating to admissions.

butterfly8888 you certainly should have been informed who would be hearing your case well in advance. I'm sitting on 2 appeals in the next couple of weeks. Notice of the appeal with the panel members and type of panel member have been issued 3 weeks in advance.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 21/05/2014 18:35

Prh47bridge, that is really helpful. How often do people complain to the LGO?

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Original poster
butterfly8888 · 21/05/2014 18:01

Can I just say that it is amazing how so many of you lovely experts here give your time to help parents.

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prh47bridge · 21/05/2014 17:21

If this is a VA school or an academy it will be its own admissions authority and therefore will organise its own appeal panels. They must still be impartial, though, and they must comply with the Appeals Code.

If the panel members are selected from the local church I would say that may put their impartiality into question. You don't, in any event, need proof that they are not impartial. You simply say to the LGO that you were concerned about the panel's impartiality and they will investigate.

Given the strength of your medical evidence I would definitely refer to the LGO (or the EFA if it is an academy) if your appeal is refused.

HPparent · 21/05/2014 16:46

Butterfly, was the panel organised by the school itself?. It just sounds very badly run. The LEA in our area organises the panel and the clerks are very professional. It seems really odd that the appointment letter doesn't mention the names of the panellists or the chair as this is standard in our area and in the Code as Tiggy points out. I would definitely query that aspect plus the fact that the panel may not even have considered your arguments.

Hope you still get the outcome you want though!

crazymum53 · 21/05/2014 15:43

Sorry for the incorrect information. Attended an Appeals Panel training session for governors earlier this year organised by my LEA. My LEA does not have a medical and social criteria for any secondary schools so perhaps they didn't cover this very well.
Decided in the end that I would find it too difficult to be on such a panel due to other work and family commitments.

Original poster
butterfly8888 · 21/05/2014 15:37

How common is it for people to go to the LGO and for a fresh hearing to be ordered?

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