'State schools are creating amoral children'

It's also quite good fun torturing them by turning up, anyway.

I've always worked on the principle that if someone wants to exclude me from something, they clearly have something wrong with them.

I can spot a private educated person a mile away, they can spot me too, those that exclude me on the basis of my schooling or background I really don't want to know.

It is a shame, kinsorange - the sensitive, introspective types give up trying to get themselves heard and understood in the end.

I was using the "how to eat properly" as an example of unspoken things which exclude. But yes, there are still a lot of people who care about that sort of thing.

Very true rabbitstew. It is a shame isnt it, but a bit the way of the world.
I think what happens is that thinner skinned people end up looking in rather than out though.

Is there really still a lot of "how to eat properly" people left? I rather get the impression that there is not?

Maybe, what we need is an acknowledgement that not every person with a huge amount to contribute is thick skinned...

Hear hear Rabbitstew. Or is it here here?

Martorana - I don't think you have to be thicker skinned to rise to the top if you're a "grammar school boy." David Cameron seems to cope in a very thick skinned way with the deficits of his Eton background. I think one of the things a public school does for you is make you unbelievably thick skinned.

Martorana I'm glad someone is being realistic about how the class system is thriving.

In my moral rule book, exclusion is a form of bullying. Our education system is doing that on a massive scale simply to pander to the elite. This will undoubtably affect children. Why would we be surprised at their behaviour? They are learning by example.

Delphiniums- of course it is outdated and ridiculous- but that's how it still works.

And the only way it will ever change is if we do something about it.

I do agree that a problem with trades and crafts is the notion of inferiors working for masters, which can be off putting for prospective applicants. People need to feel a sense of pride in their work, to know that what they do is a skill acquired through talent, hard work and dedication, not that it is something that inferiors do when they can't earn money another way. It seems to me, there is a particular backlash in this country against being told what to do, and a constant paranoia that you are being laughed at or looked down upon by others, particularly if you are paid less, which is definitely a legacy of the class system - so strongly felt that you could hardly argue that the class system no longer exists.

I think you make my point again. Why do you have to be thicker skinned to rise to the top if you're a "grammar school boy"? And, I have to say, that if you look at the history, those people only rose to the top because the established power base took it's collective eye off the ball for a moment! It's like women having to be 50% better at their jobs to be perceived as being as good as men.

It is all rather like 18th century and landed gentry looking down on those who had the money- but got it from trade- not important, except those who want to cling on to outdated structures of society, despite the inevitability of change.

It depends if it bothers you. I would watch to see how asparagus was eaten and change if I thought there was a way to eat it. When in Rome....... etc. As it is I couldn't care less if there is a 'proper' way to eat it. I think we are getting away from the main argument if we are down to how you would eat artichokes, mussels etc

Mind you, knowing what your audience might or might not find offensive or laughable is rather useful in international diplomacy.

But all the people you mention rose to the top, Martorana. So obviously it didn't matter so very much if they didn't know how to eat asparagus. I'm sure thinner skinned people would have been put off, but then a thinner skinned person wouldn't make it to Prime Minister status even if they could eat asparagus properly. Btw, I like to eat my asparagus with my fingers and don't give toss whether or not that's "proper."

Oh, and for the record, I have no problem at all with elitism.

HG- there is a big difference between the sort of professional language that people who do the same sort of work share, or people who have specialised knowledge share- I am sure that you and I could talk about horses in a way that would leave most other posters on the thread utterly baffled- and the unspoken "rules of the club" type language that you only acquire if you belong to a particular elite group. My table manners example is a good one here- if you don't know, for example, how "posh" people eat asparagus then you are going to mark yourself out as "not one of us" in some circles. It is ridiculous, but it is how it is. And it's one of the ways that the privileged classes maintain their position. Listen to Tories talk about Edward Heath, or John Major- or even Margaret Thatcher (although she was a special case obviously) and you'll see what I mean.

No, I meant you'd mentioned them at other times: cf. 'before' .

I never mentioned dons or toy time. I was a mother looking forward to seeing her DS who she'd not seen for nearly 4 weeks, that excitement I think you'll find is also not confined to those of us who pay for education.

Mart frankly your allowing your ridiculous prejudice to get the better of you and cloud your judgement. My DH's occupation oozes easy shorthand the excludes other people, my profession oozes easy short hand that excludes other people, my hair dresser talks in easy shorthand and even my DS who work in a local corner shop came home talking in easy shorthand the other day none of this is done to exclude the working working classes, middle classes or the upper classes it's simply to make life easier. My DS may been experiencing a top notch education which you feel is elitist but I hope more then anything else it teaches him common sense, to be open minded to all that's around him and to not view everything that you don't like through ridiculously prejudiced eyes.

Anyway, 'parents evening' today! Hope my 'year 8' hasn't got any 'codes' from the 'teachers'!
Nah, lacks the panache, dunnit?

The schools my kids are at encourage considerate behaviour. They don't always get it. But they certainly encourage and try to enforce it. Two are faith schools one is not. There seems to be little difference in terms of the amount of effort (a lot) they put into trying to encourage the kids to be nice. Competition is a dirty word in all the schools, although not in a sporting context when it's just fine.

"X" the other as "Y" is exactly an example of an "arcane public school lexicon". I could give you some fantastic examples if you really want both official and unofficial but I very much doubt your interested and also don't wish to fan your existing prejudices
No, x and y weekends isnt, necessarily, but the conversation became about that, didn't it? Yes, I do find 'dons' and 'toytime' etc pretentious in the extreme, and you've talked about those examples before